Refs

[Regs]

Good first few posts

Pylon,

I'm not sure that us players will ever have an 'official' say on referee performances but I do know that many refs do tend to lurk here and I've had the chance to discuss many of the things posted here with them.

Believe it or not, they seem pretty receptive to trying to work better with players much moreso than the executives of the league (VMSL).

~TB.

 

[Dude]

They do lurk

One of my teammates was telling me he bumped into one of our refs from an earlier game this year over the weekend. Apparently, I had put in a pretty good word on him (I can't remember, but not in this thread) and he told my teammate it is nice to be recognized once and a while for a job well done. Obviously, they do lurk.

We had a really good one today. When I find out his name, I'll be sure to post. There are a lot of bad ones out there, but it is good to give credit when you get a good one, and to get their name out there.

 

[fat monkey]

Best (or worst of both worlds)

First of all, let me start by saying that I am a premier player in the FVSL. That said, I am also a referee with a class 3 ticket. In case you do not know, that means I can ref. anything below premier men. Some on this thread may know me from the co-ed league as well.

Money is not an issue. $40 per game is not a bad wage, especially when you consider that the guys who are not playing are doing up to 4 games per weekend. $160 bucks for strolling around on a park Saturady and Sunday - sounds pretty good to me.

I have read here a lot of things about specific referees and their style. Sometimes confrontational, sometimes good-natured - whatever. The bottom line is that a good ref. will call a game as he or she sees fit. For example, if I see very early that two teams are physical and things may explode, I will call everything in the book with harsh words for anyone who steps out of line. This often gets the teams focus from being angry at each other to being angry at me. Then my job is successful. A soccer game has just been saved.

Bobby Brown is probably the most consistently good official I have been associated with, from both a players and referees perspective, and I have to admit, I do try to emulate certain parts of his style. We need more in the game like him.

But in reality fellas, the BCSA is seriously short of quality referees. Believe me, they have no interest in sending Mauricio out to do a game on Sunday, but they have no choice. There is no-one else. As a case in point, when I got my class 3 ticket, within 1 week 7 different organizations called to see if I could work for them.

Most of the problem is abuse. You have to have a pretty thick skin to be able to roll things off your back after games, and I guess a lot of people feel that it is not for them. There are so many players in both the VMSL and FVSL who would be terrific referees because of their knowledge of the game and their temperment, but unfortuneatly, they choose other options for themselves. We have to remember this on Sunday afternoon...

...the guy in the middle may just be finishing his fourth game that weekend. By half time, he may not even remember the names of the 2 teams playing, let alone which direction they are going.

Sorry for the book - this was FYI

 

[Dude]

Good ones and bad ones

The guy we had yesterday is Mr. Nagra. He's good every time we get him. I'm sure you'd agree Monkey. The single worst ref is Tin Po (not Au, as I stated ealier in this thread).

Monkey: you have to admit that by bumping- or even doubling- the wages you would certainly encourage more guys to spends their Sundays reffing! There are lots of guys who do love the game (as you said) but can't be bothered to take abuse all weekend for $160.00. Now, give the same guy the opportunity to make $320.00...we may even find ourselves in a surplus situation.

Money talks.

 

[fat monkey]

Money talks

Sorry Dude, but I do not concur.

If a person will not referee a game for $40, but will take $60 or higher, then they are not doing it for the right reasons.

We cannot have refs who are living for the paycheque. That is not the way to have officials who are worth their weight in salt. I still say that to be a truly good and competent referee, you must be doing it for the love of the game. The money thing, whether it is $20, $40, or $80, is just one of the perks.

I took up this abusive pasttime to maintain my contact with the game that has been a huge part of my life since I was a youngster. I will be aging out of the open men ranks in a couple of years, and this is a great way to maintain fitness, keep in contact with some of the guys, and ensure that games are still being played properly on lower mainland parks.

There is no question that more people would enlist as referees if the fees were bumped up, but the quality of the new ones would be worse then what is out there already. That is one Monkeys opinion.

 

[Jinky]

We cannot have refs who are living for the paycheque.

We already do.

I recall a game where the referee arrived late and excused his tardiness by saying that ours, was his fourth game of the day.
That's just pure greed. He had 'earned' $160 bucks by that point of the day, who knows how many more games he had yet to officiate that night or had done the day before. The little fcuker was completely knackered and never left the centre circle. I'm sure that his wallet was slowing him down.

Don't tell me he is the only guy like that.

Now then, is this cheating?

 

[fat monkey]

Sad, but true...

Jinky, unfortuneatly, that is way too common.

But, being a fellow referee, I must come to his defence, even just a little.

I have never been offered more than 2 games from the same association in one day (excluding tournaments). I think they understand the fatigue factor doing competitive games. But there may have been some extraordinary circumstances involved that we do not know about. What does a ref co-ordinator do if a guy who is scheduled to ref 2 games for him calls in sick the day of the games. He scrambles like hell. He does anything he can to fill the games, even if it involves bumping a guy from 2 to 3 or even 4 games. Otherwise, the game does not get played and that is the worst possible scenario. I am sure you would agree with that.

Of course, maybe he was just a greedy bastard.......



Oh and by the way, that was cheating.....

 

[Dude]

Money, Money, Money...

Fat Monkey,

It is all about the money...

As a player, I could give a rat's ass to the motivation of the ref (either the love of the game or the money); all I care about is if he does a good job. If we paid the refs a more competitive wage:

1. More former players would be encouraged to get their tickets
2. The schedulers would have more to choose from
3. There would be a sharp reduction in refs taking on 3 or more matches in the day because they simply wouldn’t have the opportunity.

Besides the above benefits, by paying more money and encouraging more former players to get their tickets, we may- be still my beating heart- get better refs coming out of the woodwork.

Hey, not everyone is like you…I wouldn’t take $160.00 for four games over the weekend, especially in the VMSL where you are almost assured of having your life threatened for missing a PK call. I’d rather spend my time coaching youth for free. Now, if I had the chance to make $320.00 for 4 games, I can probably be persuaded to add to the coaching shortage. (Don’t worry; I’m not coaching yet. You can let your kids out of the house for now)

Money…money…money…

DWMC

 

[fat monkey]

Still do not agree, Dude

Look, you want to throw money at me? No problem. Here I am. Tens and twenties preferred.

I still say that if you bring more money into it right away, the quality of officiating will get worse.

So, I have an idea for your perusal.

Perhaps, once an official gets to a certain rating, say for example a class 3, he starts at a certain wage scale. $40 seems to be an obvious starting point. Once he has a few games under his belt and gets assessed with an above average rating on 2 or 3 occasions in a row , he may be bumped to the next level, say class 3A with a per game salary of $45. A couple more ratings and he is 3AA at $50 and so on until he achieves the maximum salary for a level 3 which would be $60 per game.

This would alleviate anybody who wants to get into officiating strictly for the money without first doing a good job on the pitch. It also structures officials into categories more easily identified then before.

The problem then becomes, how do we figure out how much money to pay the ref on Sunday and who do we send the certain classes to?

I have to admit, I am not sure, but here is one idea. Before the season, the ref co-ordinator approaches each premier team and asks what level of official they want for their home games. Chances are, they will say class 3AAAA or whatever and get the top refs available. Obviously, you will agree that the top teams should get first crack at good refs. Then the CAT teams get asked, then first division and so-on.

But it is possible for them to say that they want a lesser rated ref. Maybe they have a short supply of funds, which is common in teams in the lower divisions. Maybe they cannot afford $60 per game.

Then a whole new can of worms gets opened, with people crying that everything is geared around the best teams, and that the rest of the league gets all the crap. Just because they have no money is no reason to give them horrible refs and so on. But that is reality. We have to give the best players and the best teams the best treatment. If we want to better soccer in this country, then we had better give a little more to premier players.

That last bit was kind of an aside, but you get the point. I obviously have not worked this through - I just thought of this tonight - but I am curious to hear any other opinions on this or any other idea to improve overall ofiiciating.

That is one Monkeys opinion.

 

[Keeper]

You've got a very good point in there.

Does the current situation account for that? In other words, are Premier Division refs paid more than the division 1, 2, or 3 (and so on down the line)? If not, it's a great suggestion.

 

[Dude]

Now you're using your Monkey brain!

When I suggested throwing money at the problem, it was a broad based sollution, and to make a point. You've worked out a structured formula, which makes pretty good sense. I think it is obvious that doubling the wage would be way overkill, but a graduated system would work well, along with sinking money into other areas- such as training and evaluation.

You are correct about the higher level teams needing the better officials as well. That somewhat happens now, but it is more like: 1. Premier, 2. Everyone else. The Cat teams and Div. 4 teams seem to get the same refs, and there is no formula. Maybe that isn't such a bad thing for now.

Glad to see you finally agreeing with me Monkey.

 

[the_game]

Referee's

I have been reading that last several posts about raising the payment of referees and that would bring back some of the better referees.

I could not disagress more. The good referees that are dedicated to the game and love the game of soccer will continue to work games regardless of the minor amount of money that we are paid. Most referees are not in the game for the money (I said MOST not ALL), instead they are in the game for the pure love it, they to have the same reasons as players for being in the game.

We are loosing more referees because the way they are treated on the field. I am not just saying at a senior level but more at a youth level. There are some very good referees coming through the system and allot of referees that have allot of potential, but what happens is they get into a game where a coach, player, or parent verbally abuses them or to a worse extent physically assaults them. Then those referees are no longer around, they just decided not to do it and there goes another good official. That is were we are losing our referees.

I have been refereeing for the past 10 years now and I now spend more of my time at the youth level and doing the occasional mens game. I love the game of soccer and I would not matter if I got paid $25 or $45 dollars to work a game.

The Game

 

[kurgan]

a coach, player, or parent verbally abuses them or to a worse

I think we all agree but lets discuss solutions. How do you prevent this crap?

Harsher suspensions for dissent?
Fines?

You've heard all the moaning about the calibre of the refs on this forum...how many of these 'elite' players haven't abused a ref now and then?

I have heard a couple names of players who never whine though and the refs will give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Dude]

Money...money...money...

The Game: You are of the same opinion that Monkey was before he saw the big picture.

It really is great that there are dedicated refs like you out here that would continue to stay in officiating, regardless of the money factor. The fact is, there are a lot of guys / former players out there who love the game as much, but need an incentive to do the job. Let's say they're shallow. Some of those guys may just have great attributes required for officiating we haven't even tapped in to. I personally don't give a shite if my ref is shallow, and loves / hates the game...as long as he / she is good! The problem is, we don't have enough refs, and the solution is to provide an incentive. However the incentive is structured isn't really the issue right now.

Telling would-be officials that "we are cleaning up the game" isn't an incentive.

 

[fat monkey]

Dude is wrong.

I have talked to quite a few people about this. Players, coaches, managers, and even referees. All agree that money is surely not the problem. Abuse - mainly verbal - is.

Dude, I certainly do not agree with you about the money factor regarding paying refs more when they first start doing adult games. $40 per game is just fine. The rest of my theory was just an example of a way to keep the good ones and allow them to better themselves. It would also give incentive for poorer refs to improve. But these scenarios all involve refs who are already in the system.

I completely agree with The Game. It is about commitment and love for the game of soccer. Nothing else. There are so many quality people in the playing ranks who would be excellent referees, but stay away because they do not want to spend their Sunday getting yelled at. Hell, they can stay at home with their wives for that.

Shallow people or Money-first people; stay away. We do not want you to ruin our game.

That is one Monkeys opinion.

 

[Dude]

"MONEY"....you gotta have it!

Monkey,

I can tell I'm starting to piss you off, and I love it. What else is new?

You two guys are the salt of society, and must certainly love the game more than 95% (or more) of the players out there because you choose to ref a game. You MUST love the game more than us because you don’t mind taking abuse on Sunday mornings for $40.00 / game rather than, say, coaching youth for free 3x / week. I think rather than looking for a solution, the rest of us should just send you guys bouquets of flowers and Christmas fruitcakes because you are founding members of soccer society. What do you think? Would that help improve the officiating shortage?

Here is the answer: NO! The solution: MONEY!

Sink money into ANY infrastructure, and you will somehow improve it. You have to be an NDPer not to! Spend it wisely. Perhaps for better training programs, perhaps for a graduated pay scale, perhaps- even- to pay $40.00 for a member of the VPD to stand-by a typical VMSL game. You know those games, where the Serbs threaten to cut out the tongue of the ref for making a bad call.

“The love of the Game”. Fcuk. You guys are full of the bullshit you’re selling.

 

[Dude]

Fine

Originally posted by kurgan
I think we all agree but lets discuss solutions. How do you prevent this crap?

Harsher suspensions for dissent?
Fines?

I have heard a couple names of players who never whine though and the refs will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Kurgan: what are the fines / suspensions for dissent in the VMSL now? In the FVSL, if you get a red for dissent, the fine is $50.00, and the suspension 4 games. We're not talking about 2 yellows here, but a single Red. We had a guy last year who was given a red for dissent, and decided not to show to his hearing: 6 games, $80.00. This guy was a repeat offender. We had another yet who had the wisdom to moon a ref (yes, I said moon), and chose not to go to his hearing: $50.00 fine, one year suspension. We now, in addition to the card system, have a point system. Each yellow is worth one point, and each red is worth 4 points (I think). Once a team reaches a certain level, they pay a team fine. There are various levels, and various fines. If our team reaches the same level as last season, we will have to pay a team fine of $250.00! Luckily, we don't have guys getting reds or mooning refs this year, so it looks like we'll actually finish the season without paying any team fine. This is a good example of using MONEY incentives to solve a problem.

I find the FVSL has better officiating, and the dissent factor is way down. The consequences simply aren't worth the risk. It would be interesting to see if the FVSL redistributes any of this MONEY towards league run officiating.

 

[the_game]

Dude:

From my understanding of your last post, I think it is great the steps that your league is taking and the stance they are making against Dissent towards the referee.

I was not necessarily talking about senior soccer. I am working more along the lines of Youth soccer. Coaches and players cannot be fined in youth soccer. Instead lax penatlies ranging from a warning to 1 or 2 games.

For some reason coaches and players in youth soccer seem to think that they are better then everyone else including senior soccer because they can get away with anything and say anything. Until such time fines or heavier penalties are handed down in youth soccer the problem of verbal abuse towards officials will continue.

I am intrigued to hear more about other leagues (i.e. Vancouver Metro, FVSA ex) and what they do about discpline.

The Game

 

[Dude]

FVSL Fines

This is from the FVSL site. It is a bit long, and I've deleted what isn't really relevant to the discussion:“SCHEDULE OF FINES - DISCIPLINE (2001/2002)

Yellow Cards
a) 3 yellow cards - minimum one game suspension and $15 fine.
b) 5 yellow cards - minimum two game suspension and $30 fine.
c) 6 yellow cards - minimum three game suspension and $45 fine.
d) 7 yellow cards - minimum four game suspension and $60 fine.
Red Cards
a) 1 red card - minimum one game suspension and $15 fine.
b) 2 red cards - minimum four game suspension and $60 fine.
c) 3 red cards - goes to BCSA Discipline Board.
Players who receive more than 8 points during the season will be suspended for the remainder of the season (one point for each yellow card and three points for each red card).

The League Disciplinary Committee may add any number of games (when deemed appropriate) to a suspension when:
a) the severity of the incident(s) warrants further suspension.
b) the past history of suspensions to a player warrants further suspension.


TEAM PENALTIES

Points shall be accumulated at the rate of one point for each yellow card and three points for each red card received during the course of the season (League and Cup play).

1. Any team which receives more than 35 penalty points during a season will pay an automatic fine of $100 and must reapply for admission to the League for the next season.
2. Over 40 points: an additional $100.
3. Over 45 points: an additional $200.
4. Any team which is fined for penalty points in a second consecutive year will have those fines
assessed at double the rate previously mentioned.”

Also relevant:

"SPECIAL CASES - Players reported for foul or abusive language directed at a game official before, during or after a match (red card offence) will be fined a minimum of $50.00 and a minimum 4 game suspension in addition to any penalties incurred for other yellow or red card infractions received. Suspended players reported for foul or abusive language directed at a game official before, during or after a match will be suspended an additional 8 games and fined $100.00.

Non playing team personnel reported for foul or abusive language directed at game officials before, during or after a match will be fined a minimum of $50.00 and receive a minimum 4 game suspension."


Having not played in the VMSL in a while, I'd be interested in seeing how their system compares.

Dude.

 

[Regs]

FWIW

VMSL as far as I know impose a $10 a game fine for suspensions only, which is a bit of a joke in terms of how little it is.

I don't agree with an automatic 4 game suspension for 2 reds in the FVSL though. That's way too harsh if you ask me, which you didn't so I'll move on...

~TB.