Solidarity Forever!

[Skip]

Skip, if the teachers go back and decide that a 'Work to Rule' is the only way to go, would you choose that route, if you had a choice?

A couple of my colleagues and I discussed this on the picket line just yesterday. We seemed to agree on many levels.

As much as we enjoy coaching and feel that the extra-curricular experience is an important and valuable part of a student's time in school.....its difficult to muster the motivation to provide these 'extras' when the government continues to sh1t on us like they are. Its important for teachers (I think) to feel as though these things are valued, and unfortunately when we continue to be treated with such disregard, I myself feel less and less inclined to go above and beyond.

In essence, I guess I'm saying this: If the government thinks so little of teachers, and wants to continue to claim that they are acting in the best interest of the education system, when clearly they are not.......I will teach, and thats it.

~Skip

 

[Captain Shamrock]

A couple of my colleagues and I discussed this on the picket line just yesterday. We seemed to agree on many levels.

As much as we enjoy coaching and feel that the extra-curricular experience is an important and valuable part of a student's time in school.....its difficult to muster the motivation to provide these 'extras' when the government continues to sh1t on us like they are. Its important for teachers (I think) to feel as though these things are valued, and unfortunately when we continue to be treated with such disregard, I myself feel less and less inclined to go above and beyond.

In essence, I guess I'm saying this: If the government thinks so little of teachers, and wants to continue to claim that they are acting in the best interest of the education system, when clearly they are not.......I will teach, and thats it.

~Skip

Valid points, Skip. I know it would be very difficult for you to do that and I think I would also have a very tough time doing that. Let's just hope we don't have to make that decision. That is one sure way to divide a school.............

 

[Keeper]

This is the time to stand amongst colleagues and show unity, despite the many differences between us. I find it surprising that someone who obviously has an amazing sense of what it means to be part of a successful team, can choose to undermine the concept when its needed most.

Skip,

I hope you're not referring to the same "unity" that was non-existent during last Wednesday's vote, when TOCs (in my district, at least) were given no direction or information of said vote. Likewise, I have yet to receive a single phone call or email from "my union" about what to do/where to go for picketting. If not for a chance encounter with another TOC, I'd still have no official info.

In fact, this lack of "unity" might be the very reason for two things: (1) the reason I have yet to see any other TOCs on the line ( -- Have you?), and (2) why there was only a 52% voter turnout last Wednesday (-- I'd sure like to know how many of those 52% were TOC votes).

 

[Keeper]

Of course when you are the Campbell government you don't have to abide by any agreements, except the ones you legislate.

Nor would you have to abide by (let alone, acknowledge!) any international court decisions.

 

[cside17]

I disagree. While there must certainly be a section of the teacher population that feels this way, most of the teachers I work with believe this may be a lengthy battle. One worth fighting.



Capt.,

I respect you for many reasons, not the least of which being your obvious dedication to teaching, and the students. I do however, find this comment and your voiced sentiments to be quite disappointing.

Do you think that you are the only teacher who puts in extra hours? Many of us do, and have done so since we started. These same teachers now walk the picket line in defiance of the Liberal government, and it's decision to shove another un-bargained contract down our throats. I am the first to agree, that the union has made some poor choices in the past, and has not represented us as well as we would like. However, do you think it is possible to lead a group of over 40 000, critical & independent thinking teachers without having at least some degree of dissatisfaction among the group?! It seems to me, that this is not the time to take a stand against the union. This is the time to stand amongst colleagues and show unity, despite the many differences between us. I find it surprising that someone who obviously has an amazing sense of what it means to be part of a successful team, can choose to undermine the concept when its needed most.

Respectfully,

~Skip

Well said Skip!

Capt, (I )must say I am surprised at your stance on this!

I being the HEU maintenance/trades member that lost $2.76hr after our strike last year. But I stood up for what I believed in. And would do it again in a flash! If I didn't, we would be privatized by now, just like housekeeping/nutrition services.

Have you been in a hospital lately?

I'm hoping for a general strike, that last's a while, I may not be able to afford it, but it needs to be done!

I can't believe I bit on this thread!

 

[Captain Shamrock]

Capt, (I )must say I am surprised at your stance on this!

Why are you surprised, C-side? I thought I made it pretty clear what I thought of our union and the government for that matter. It's a bad situation that is going to get a whole lot worse tomorrow. As I said, it better end soon..............

 

[Skip]

(1) the reason I have yet to see any other TOCs on the line ( -- Have you?), and (2) why there was only a 52% voter turnout last Wednesday (-- I'd sure like to know how many of those 52% were TOC votes).

All I can say is.....wow!

I have no idea where the lines of communication have broken down for you, but I have seen a few TOCs join our picket line. I also know that these individuals received the same voice message that I did from John Wage of the STA regarding the last vote.

As far as the 52% thing goes. It pisses me off that the media has chosen to play this angle. Many teachers simply couldn't make the 4:00pm meeting time because of other obligations within school. I'm willing to bet that of the 48% who didn't manage to make it, a large majority would have voted YES.

~S

 

[Captain Shamrock]

I'm willing to bet that of the 48% who didn't manage to make it, a large majority would have voted YES.

That's easy to assume, Skip. I would say that the large majority would have voted NO.



Solidarity Forever(kind of)

 

[Skip]

That's twice I've had to disagree with you today!

To each their own I guess (which could spell the death of us IMO)

~Skip

 

[abcd]

Teachers should get more resources. But your federation has to get there math figured out.

If there are 650,000 students and 42,000 teachers, that means 15.5 students per teacher. So this obviously is not right.

If there are 650,000 students and 21,000 teachers full-time, that means 31 students per teacher. More in line with the teachers saying classes are full. But does this mean there are 21,000 substitute teachers. One full-time for one substitute.

Maybe getting the math right is a good start.

Negotiating with lawyers is an art form. If your arguements are weak, you will lose. The teacher's numbers are weak unfortunately.

 

[trece verde]

General Strike?

Not likely to see me picketing soon, with CUPE offering us an extremely generous $10 to carry a sign ...

Because I'm the mercenary I am, the last thing I can afford is to be off for much longer. However, as "support staff," we're stuck without work (and without pay) until the teachers' strike is settled in one manner or another. You could say we are pawns (or maybe the rooks?) too...

While I don't quite agree with the legislated contract idea (BC teachers are the only ones in the country who have been designated an essential service), as a parent, I don't want my kids to have to miss out on any of their education, either. And no, it's not because I'm getting tired of sitting at home with them, either....

A couple of interesting ideas that I've heard...

1) Not sure about the general public's support for either side - allegedly, only 20% of BC's population are affected directly by the disruption (not sure if this represents teachers/students/parents population or what...)
2) With the great financial housekeeping that the provincial government keeps reminding us that they're doing, how difficult would it be to provide sufficient funding increases to cover the cost of school supplies?

Unofficially neutral,

Trece

 

[Aves]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I have been wrong, once before), but wasn't this recent "poll" of the labor force in BC conducted only amongst unionized members? Of course the results will be skewed in favor of the teachers...many are your typical "solidarity forever" lunch bucket union guy who may or may not have kids to worry about. Many of the votes would be irrelevant.

A more accurate and honest poll would have been to get the opinions of every PTA member across the Province. You'd see far different results, most likely showing the majority of parents are not in favor of the teacher's walk-out. I wish the union would stop trying to sell bullshit to the public.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong..

spew out accusations without any real knowledge of the facts and challenge people to prove you wrong...ignorant rumour-mongering at its best!
Who would of guessed it from the anti-lunchbucket-entrepeneur snob?

side note...I asked a few non-union trades guys at training if they thought their professional situation (wages/ benefits/working conditions) were better or worse because there is a group of "solidarity forever typical lunch bucket" unionized workers in their trade. Guess what their answers were?
Yep.
go figure...a union that actually has a positive benefit on another non union member of society.

not to mention the worry that disgruntled, poorly treated employees could be moved to certify...do you think this helps to motivate management to not be assholes?

There are legitimate criticisms of every union...be they from union members or employers. Common sense, fairness and respect should guide this evolution of ideas / rights / expectations.

Spewing out unfounded claims and pretending it is meaningful discussion is a waste...

to extend this...Mutual respect is a good starting point and attacking teachers character and calling them all criminals makes it tough to come together towards a solution. But then this gov't talks about working together (hey we offered them a roundtable!) but really has not shown a desire to negotiate anything.

one final point...could the gov't rip up a legal contract it had with a private business because they wanted to put their stamp on things? How is it this breaking of a contract is not an equal part of this legal/illegal debate? The teachers had an agreement in place when the liberals came into power. If they wanted changes why not wait until the contract ended and push for those changes?

the hippocracy of this astounds me....and makes me laugh at the moral high ground that many of them so righteously sit upon.

But alas, this is shaping up to be a bit of a showdown for power, and we all know the gov't doesn't want to appear weak and back down from any union (nor does the union)
I'm beginning to feel like we are the nhl players who have taken on a bit more than we really planned for..our only saving grace is that society can do without hockey, but not a harmonious education system. For that reason there needs to be some compromise here from both sides.

if not...bitter, bitter, bitter
and bitter teachers don't volunteer for school committees and all that extra non-paid fun stuff that kids and parents (and teachers)love and have become very accustomed to expect from their local school.

 

[Dude]

Fcuk you're a bitch Aves. I know my way around more industrial sites than you'll ever see from the side of the road. So, when I say "lunch bucket union guy", I actually state that with a fair amount of respect, because I work with them on a daily basis. Just because I don't respect the union, doesn't mean I don't respect the man. You know nothing of hard labor and tough decisions, so don't pretend you do. Your job is stressful, yes. Valuable to society? Absolutely. Back breaking? Ummmm, no.

To think I've actually stuck up for teachers, like you, whom I've always believed have been VASTLY underpaid, and overstressed in their work. You don't chose to acknowledge this though, because all you read is that I don't like your union, or your union's tactics. You are completely close minded, and only chose to interpret a very small portion of what I've written.

Yes, I'm strongly against unions being involved in education. I'm also very pro teachers. You, on the other hand, will follow your union off a cliff if asked. That much is evident. You preach free thinking, but don't practice it. You encourage leadership, but are a follower. You are a teacher, but don't have the courage to take an unpopular stance.

Irony at it finest....

 

[Aves]

Fcuk you're a bitch Aves.
nice start
I know my way around more industrial sites than you'll ever see from the side of the road. So, when I say "lunch bucket union guy", I actually state that with a fair amount of respect

oh , that was you showing respect...I get it now

because I work with them on a daily basis. Just because I don't respect the union, doesn't mean I don't respect the man. You know nothing of hard labor and tough decisions, so don't pretend you do. Your job is stressful, yes. Valuable to society? Absolutely. Back breaking? Ummmm, no.

and I said it was?...actually lifting those wrestling mats can be a bitch

To think I've actually stuck up for teachers, like you, whom I've always believed have been VASTLY underpaid, and overstressed in their work. You don't chose to acknowledge this though, because all you read is that I don't like your union, or your union's tactics.
You are completely close minded, and only chose to interpret a very small portion of what I've written.

you're responsible for all the crap you write fella

Yes, I'm strongly against unions being involved in education. I'm also very pro teachers. You, on the other hand, will follow your union off a cliff if asked. That much is evident. You preach free thinking, but don't practice it. You encourage leadership, but are a follower. You are a teacher, but don't have the courage to take an unpopular stance.

Irony at it finest....

I would be tempted to respond further to spewing a la dude but he might accuse me , again, of not appreciating his full body of work.


plus I lack courage

 

[Ballbaby]

The dialogue between union and non-union has been beat to a pulp. Some unions are good. Some unions are bad. The valid unions of today have adapted and kept up with the times. The teachers union is in transition and believe it or not, the provincial governement is helping the teachers complete the transition by their extremely confrontional stand in creating and passing a piece of legislation that we all should regard as an absolute abuse of power. This comes after they cleverly tarred the teacher's image by forcing them to accept their last contract which included a slight wage increase that had to be derived out of the respective school board's operational budget.

Do teachers need to be unionized? At this present time I would state yes. Seeing as most citizens do not have the ability to pay for private education, a balanced public education system seems to be the only alternative, and if that means working under the umbrella of a government agency, you bet your ass that these teachers should be unionized. Transitory government managers have historically looked after their own asses first before really addressing the main issues; hence we need unions.

Anyway, the real issue of why these two parties have not reached an agreement is addressed in a letter I wrote to CKNW. I don't know if it was read or not but I believe that these are the real issues. You have to have been there done that to see vengeance at it's finest.


" Bill,

I am a parent of three children who attend public schools. I am very concerned about the dialogue centering around the negotiation process between teachers and the negotiation committee representing the Education Ministry. The real reason a settlement has not been reached has more to do with egos and revenge. The fact is the teachers publicly voiced their non-support in the last election towards the Liberal government. The Liberal government is playing the political game that has flourished and been mastered in this province; it is called revenge. The B.C. Public School Employers Association does not have the mandate to negotiate a contract in my opinion. I have sat through contract negotiations in the past within my own occupation, and I can tell you it is quite clear, fairly quick, when the party on the other side does not have the mandate to settle or are just plain unreasonable. Quite often, common sense is lost amongst individuals who are normally quite educated, reasonable, and logical. Funny what body language or a jibe can do to foul a decent dialogue at the negotiation table. The teachers embarrassed the Liberals with their public campaign in the last election and the Liberals are paying them back. It really is that simple. As much as we like to think we are sophisticated enough to control the human dynamics that could taint a negotiation process, and concentrate on the real issues, at the end of the day we are all human beings who exhibit some unconstructive human traits. Collective Bargaining requires a real understanding of all issues at hand from both sides. A basic amount of trust and respect is required for the system to work. Clearly these components are missing in this situation and have been for some time. In my life experiences, I am more apt to trust those who have chosen teaching as a profession than those who have opted for a life in politics. Geez, wonder why I formed that opinion? Therefore, I am more inclined to trust that it is the teachers who are sincere when sitting at the negotiation table as opposed to a body representing the government bent on revenge."

 

[Keeper]

You've got some interesting points there, Ballbaby; but jeez, I hope our leaders are more rational than that.

 

[Hands of Stone]

Funny that the revenge thing comes up, because I remember the TV commercial that the BCTF aired during the Oscars last year, it was a total TTP of the Liberals, with all crying foul the next day. So now we get to negotiation time, and Gordo and the boys go and pull another Legislation out of their assses.
And I thought I was the only one that thought up these conspiricy theories.

Well I hope the best for the teachers, to bad the media is all over them with the very small numbers crossing the line in different districts. Only think there is one in Richmond, is that you Cappy?

Well here is more info on the fight!

TB.C. LABOUR E-NEWS - TEACHERS DISPUTE UPDATE - October 12, 2005

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CONTENTS

1.> FOUR WAYS TO SUPPORT THE TEACHERS RIGHT NOW

2.> PROVINCIAL RALLIES FOR TEACHERS DRAW THOUSANDS OF SUPPORTERS

3.> ONLINE POLLS - VOTE FOR TEACHERS

4.> SCHOOL BOARDS SUPPORT TEACHERS

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1.> FOUR WAYS TO SUPPORT THE TEACHERS RIGHT NOW
No matter how long the teachers' dispute lasts, your support on the picket
line, in the media and in
your community will be critical. We also know that many people want to
help, and have come to us
asking what they can do. Here's how you can help today:


1. Phone your MLA this week while they are in the constituency. Tell him or
her that you support
the teachers' right to protest an unjust law. Tell him or her that if
Gordon Campbell wants to get
teachers back in the classroom he should come to the table and negotiate
with them. You can
look up the phone and fax number for your MLA at:
< http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/mla/3-1-1.htm >

2. Send the same message directly to Gordon Campbell. You can call his
constituency office at
604-660-3202 or send an email:
< mailto:gordon.campbell.mla@leg.bc.ca >

3. While you are at it, phone Mike de Jong, the Minister of Labour, and
tell him that you support
the teachers. Call him at his constituency office: 604-870-5486 or send an
email:
< mailto:mike.dejong.mla@leg.bc.ca >

4. Don't stop there. Let Shirley Bond, the Minister of Education, know that
you stand behind the
teachers. Her number is 250-612-4181, or you can send her an email:
< mailto:shirley.bond.mla@leg.bc.ca >

---------------------------------------------------------------
2.> PROVINCE-WIDE RALLIES FOR TEACHERS DRAW THOUSANDS OF
SUPPORTERS
Members of nearly all affiliated unions turned out by the thousands
last night and today at rallies held around the province in support
of teachers.

Support also came from members of the community outside the labour
movement, including seniors, students, parents and other community
groups.

"The BC Liberals are trying desperately to turn public support for
the teachers ," said B.C. Federation of Labour President Jim Sinclair.
"They're already claiming that Solidarity is beginning to weaken --
Nothing could be further from the truth."

The BC Teachers' Federation is planning a major Rally and March on
Monday in Victoria between 11:00 AM and 2:45 PM.

For more details and to download a poster:

< http://www.bctf.ca/bargain/negotiations2004/TeachersTakeAStand/Ral
lyFlyer.pdf >

+++|+++

3.> ONLINE POLLS - VOTE FOR TEACHERS

Do you support extending the teachers' collective agreement?
http://www.royalcityrecord.com/

Are you pleased the government legislated a contract on B.C.
teachers?
< http://www.richmond-news.com/ >

Do you support B.C. teachers in their requests for smaller class
sizes and a pay raise in their dispute with the provincial
government?
< http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/ >

Do you support teachers in their fight for pay increases and
smaller class sizes?
< http://www.langleytimes.com/ >

Do you approve of the provincial government's move to introduce
legislation to extend the teachers' contract?
< http://www.pgfreepress.com/ >


Would you support the teachers' strike if it continues past two
weeks?
< http://www.surreyleader.com/ >


4.> SCHOOL BOARDS SUPPORT TEACHERS

A number of School Boards have adopted positions of support for the
teachers, including :

Southeast Kootenay
Revelstoke
Arrow Lakes
Nicola-Similkameen
Vernon
Surrey
Vancouver
New Westminster
Coquitlam
Boundary
Sooke
Saanich
Cowichan
Alberni
Comox
Mount Arrowsmith
Campbell River
Vancouver Island North


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Ballbaby]

You've got some interesting points there, Ballbaby; but jeez, I hope our leaders are more rational than that.

Get involved in politics and you will see for yourself. Disgusting at times. Egomaniacs galore. Of course some are sincere. Some were sincere. Some were and are sincerely advancing their personal agendas.

Come on, I'm premier of this province and you think I'm going to risk driving home drunk. Cripes, I coach kids soccer and I worry more about disappointing them.

You take the risk of allying yourself against a certain body and you lose, you reap the consequences. You win, you reap the consequences. It's a stupid game.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

Only think there is one in Richmond, is that you Cappy?

I teach in the Delta School District, and as I said, I'm not crossing the picket line. That's as much support as my conscience can offer.......

 

[Hands of Stone]

I teach in the Delta School District, and as I said, I'm not crossing the picket line. That's as much support as my conscience can offer.......

Just giving you a hard time there Cappy Solidarity, you slam your union into the ground, but you will be right there with the rest of the teachers and your hand out for the improved working conditions (smaller class sizes) and a fair wage increase (the 10% over 10 years that you guys got is a joke).

Perhpas you don't care, you just save yourself all day at school for your real job, the new FIFA ref for Canada. Are we going to see that bad knee in Azteca soon? I guess if Rene can do it, anyone can, even Cappy.

hos

Fight the Fight Teachers