Solidarity Forever!

[Dial 9-1-1]

Looks like 90% of teachers are telling Gordon that he can take his legislated end to job action and shove it.

The original word I heard was a one day wildcat strike. But a strike occurring on a Friday prior to a long weekend--I'm not sure anyone would have noticed. Parents probably would have ended up thanking the teachers for an extended weekend in Whistler.

This strike's timeline is supposed to be indefinite...until a new contract is hammered out. I agree with the 90.5%...it's either time to take a shite or get off the shitter.

Solidarity forever!

 

[Keeper]

I'm really disappointed things have come to a head like this. In the first vote I had hoped teachers would give the "process" more time to work itself out; but to try and force the government's hand with a plan for escalating action just wasn't going to solve anything.

On Monday, however, I was really surprised and somewhat angered that the gov't would come down so quickly with legislation that failed to address anything but a hope to design a new bargaining system.

And now we'll be on stri-- er . . . a walkout (why isn't anyone using the "s" word?). I don't want to be -- in fact, I'd probably put myself close to the Captain on the solidarity scale -- but it really bothers me that the gov't refuses to make any compromises in order to get a deal done.

 

[Dude]

How is it that it is unacceptable for the Government to use children as pawns, but not teachers? The term "Solidarity Forever" has no place in the educational system.

I'm in agreement with many of the teachers, and issues, but will never agree with your union's tactics.

 

[Hands of Stone]

I'm in agreement with many of the teachers, and issues, but will never agree with your union's tactics.

So the Labour Minister tells the media that the teachers are setting a bad example for the kids by staging an illegal walk-out. Come on man, what is the example you set for the kids if you just bend over and take what ever this dictatorship of a government wants to give you. The teachers agreed to negotiate a contract, but the Liberals instead took that away from these working people and AGAIN imposed a contract on these hard working teachers, I call bull shitt.

Solidarity Forever!

 

[walls]

i make more money at 24 than any of my teachers that told me i'd never amount to nothing ever did or will.....so there!!!!
someone please give these hardly workers more holidays!!!!!!


....oh yeah......government....**** GOVERNMENT!!!!
....but seriously, the liberals are all about the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. they keep the 'working' man/woman down by trying to cut their benefits, wages ect........and in the same stride, fatten their own leather.

 

[Dude]

Hos, they are kids. They don't care or learn from the "example" teachers are setting. They go to school to learn how to read, write, and multiply. It isn't a teacher's job to teach my kid about how to deal with unfair working wages, large class sizes, and lack of funding for special needs.

Besides, unions have absolutely no place in an educational system.

If you move gravel around, or dig ditches for the city, maybe yes, but then, I'm not sending Mini Dude out to the side of the road to watch some guy dig a ditch, then tell me how that will help him in deciding what University he'll go to.

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

Besides, unions have absolutely no place in an educational system.

Dude...please explain why this is so.

 

[Dude]

I've already made my views pretty damn clear over numerous fun filled threads debating this issue, but here it is in a nutshell...

Unions were created- and have a place- in the labor workforce. Essentially, their original purpose was to bring higher working standards, safety, and fair wages to the laborers.

Teachers are not laborers, they are professionals. Your first problem is that you are lowering your standards to that of laborers. You're not a ditch digger, but aspire to be treated as fairly as they are. Because you do this, of course you're going to be perceived to be only deserving of lower wages, and poor working conditions. Teachers go to school for how long, and to be paid what? I'm in full agreement with teachers on your wages and benefits; not on par with other professionals in our society. But, you as a group have chosen to be represented as a labor union, and the union negotiators approach your employer on your behalf with a narrow negotiating stance: give me more, pay me more, treat me better, spend more on my support system, or I'll cost you exponentially more money when I hold out. Then you do. It's a vicious cycle, with both your union and our government (no matter what party is in power) to blame.

An ideal solution would see the union abolished, a higher pay scale established, and a complete reform of the system to create manageable class sizes, and levels of support / budget. I bet that by completely revamping the system, economies of scale would kick in: greater upfront costs, but lower long term costs due to greater efficiencies, and reduced labor strife. In the end, a better educational system for our kids.

Sad that the majority of teachers feel that they have no choice but to blindly follow their union's lead.

 

[walls]

Besides, unions have absolutely no place in an educational system.

thats sooooooo true kathy lee!!!!! i can't wait until its your/or someone you loves job that gets pulled out from under their feet and is given to someone in indonesia for $2 a day. shite flows downhill and its only a matter time until it falls on the teaches too IMO.
.....and no, i don't belong to a union!

 

[Dude]

You're so young.

Statements like that make me shake my head. First of all, a $2 / hour worker from Indonesia isn't going to replace a teacher. Solidarity Forever may be the topic, but the theme is teachers. Let's keep things realistic, Hos...I mean, Walls. If a ditch digger is replaced by someone willing to do the job for less money, you shouldn't be shocked. They are digging fcuking ditches, for Christ's sake!

Second, it's as if you believe I haven't been there...well I have, and so has my wife. When it happens, you don't hang your head, looking for someone else to blame, you move on. Long story short: the real world is tough, especially the business world, and if you can't perform, you're encouraged to find another line of work. Teachers should demand to be compensated fairly- comparable to other professionals in society- and should also be held to the highest levels of standards.

 

[Dude]

Sorry...$2/day. There, that made your argument that much more realistic.

 

[Hands of Stone]

An ideal solution would see the union abolished, a higher pay scale established, and a complete reform of the system to create manageable class sizes, and levels of support / budget. I bet that by completely revamping the system, economies of scale would kick in: greater upfront costs, but lower long term costs due to greater efficiencies, and reduced labor strife. In the end, a better educational system for our kids.

Let me go over your solution here Mr. Gordo. By abolishing the union, you in turn increase the pay scale, while also lowering class sizes. This all would lower long term costs due to greater efficiencies because of lower labor strife.

Someone send this off to the Labour Minister, the walk-out is over.

Come on Dude, the Liberal Government in no way wants to increase pay scales or reduce class sizes or they wouldn't have closed so many schools in BC, increasing class sizes to the highest level ever.

You just have no idea about the hidden agenda of this government.

Hos

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

Teachers are not laborers, they are professionals. Your first problem is that you are lowering your standards to that of laborers.

Dude, professionals get to choose where they work. The top professionals get paid the top dollar.

Your plan would lead to movement of teachers from school to school. Some schools, especially the ones in the higher income areas, would be loaded with the top teachers.

Hope Dude Jr lives in a good catchment.

 

[abcd]

Teachers are not laborers, they are professionals. Your first problem is that you are lowering your standards to that of laborers. You're not a ditch digger, but aspire to be treated as fairly as they are. Because you do this, of course you're going to be perceived to be only deserving of lower wages, and poor working conditions. Teachers go to school for how long, and to be paid what? I'm in full agreement with teachers on your wages and benefits; not on par with other professionals in our society. QUOTE]

actually teachers are not professionals. the legal definition in canada usually applies professionals only to doctors, lawyers, accountants (C.A, CGA) and engineers (those getting there P.Eng). It's not strange that pay scale reflects this status over other vocations. Simply going to school for 4 years to get your bachelors and another year to get your B.Ed hardly is much time compared to for example a doctor who goes to University for minimum 8 years and another 6 years of residence. As for higher wages, it eventually comes back to all of us in higher taxes. Give the education system more resources but give the teachers a token 1% raise. Everyone wants more money, too bad most workers don't deserve it. Ignorant people would simple blame the government and not themselves. Only the risk taker like a business man should be rewarded. Being an employee should only guarantee you a decent living.

 

[Dude]

Hos, didn't say it was realistic, but ideal. Utopia. But, yes, I would bet my left nut (just call me Uniballer) that with increasing investment up front, the system would realize long term savings, due mostly to not having to fight the union every year or two. The man hours and legal cost involved with battling public sector unions is one of the biggest wastes the Province has.

Dial: remember that the budget is still provided by the government, so location is irrelevant to the model. Perhaps once you get into special needs, afterschool, and extra curricular programs there would be a cost difference, but if the schools are administered and budgeted on equal, per capita levels, it would ensure that each district could compete for teachers on an equal scale.

On catchement, it won't matter, because I'm getting so fed up with this system that the kids will be in a private school before long. Yes, I'd rather take the risk of the Fenian teaching my kid...talk about stepping out on a limb.

 

[Dude]

Abcd: what exactly are teachers classified as, then? Surely not a laborer. Besides, they spend a minimum of 4 years in school, but many continue of for their Masters while still teaching. Just because an obscure legal definition doesn't classify them as such, it is a fact that many invest as much as your average engineer in the schooling. Doctors, well...different animal. Could be argued that they should have their own special class, if one followed your line of thinking.

Agree 100% on your Risk / Reward stance.

 

[walls]

please enlighten me dude on the difference between labourers and proffesionals. i assume you would consider a doctor a pro. why do they call their line of business a PRACTICE then? how bout a lawyer? how much money do you think they make a year? now here's the real catch........ if these two proffesionals are wrong in their handling of their clients......they still get paid. and a fcuk of a lot of money to boot!!! if i fcuk up in my proffesion, i either fix the problem for free or i see my client in court!! i was taught to spell incorrectly by my grade 2 teacher. should i be able to take her, the school board and the government to court for that. probably wouldn't fly.

and on another note in regards to unions....... a very close friend of mine was killed two years ago on a non-union construction site cause it was not madatory to wear a safety harness. he was one of i believe 8 people that summer that lost their lives on such sites. that shite doesn't happen on union sites. but i agree with you...lets ebolish unions.......as soon as people stop thinking so narrow-mindedly like yourself and start considering the guy that digs the ditches as important to society as my second grade teacher, my lawyer, or my doctor who hasn't been able to figure out exactly whats wrong with my foot for 2 weeks but has already been paid for her 'services'!!!!!!!

 

[Keeper]

and on another note in regards to unions....... a very close friend of mine was killed two years ago on a non-union construction site cause it was not madatory to wear a safety harness. he was one of i believe 8 people that summer that lost their lives on such sites. that shite doesn't happen on union sites. but i agree with you...lets ebolish unions.......as soon as people stop thinking so narrow-mindedly like yourself and start considering the guy that digs the ditches as important to society as my second grade teacher, my lawyer, or my doctor who hasn't been able to figure out exactly whats wrong with my foot for 2 weeks but has already been paid for her 'services'!!!!!!!

Sorry to sound calice, but if I'm working on top of a building I wouldn't need someone to tell me to wear a safety harness.

Perhaps your 2nd grade teacher required further teaching support in your classroom to help you learn how to spell. Some students have learning disabilities, you know.

And believe it or not -- and I'm not a medical doctor -- not all injuries or ailments are diagnosed at the drop of a hat. Sometimes they need further study, tests, specialist opinions, etc. Perhaps your foot is like this. But if you asked me, I'd say you could cure yourself if you just pull it out of your ass.

 

[abcd]

Abcd: what exactly are teachers classified as, then? Surely not a laborer. Besides, they spend a minimum of 4 years in school, but many continue of for their Masters while still teaching. Just because an obscure legal definition doesn't classify them as such, it is a fact that many invest as much as your average engineer in the schooling. Doctors, well...different animal. Could be argued that they should have their own special class, if one followed your line of thinking.

Agree 100% on your Risk / Reward stance.

maybe teachers are white collar labourers. I bet passing the medical, bar or UFE exams is a tiny bit harder than finishing in the other vocations. Doesn't make them smarter but it does separate the contenders and pretenders when it comes to money. Who cares about obscure legal definition then. Making on average 6 figures plus on a consistent basis makes them professionals. If these kinds of workers weren't professionals, then everyone would be doing it and making the big bucks.

If you look at dollar figures when looking at investing in your career, for sure being an engineer cost more than going to school for being a teacher. Obviously you dont know the concept called "opportunity cost". The professionals go to school and get there practical experience while making very little money. Then they get there delayed pay after they qualify as a professional. This is one fundamental difference than just being a teacher. So what if you do your masters in education during your spare time. At least you can still work. You can't go to med school part-time. And what about those 72 hour shifts at work. So ya, professionals are considered a special class, thus they make more than most people.

 

[abcd]

if these two proffesionals are wrong in their handling of their clients......they still get paid. and a fcuk of a lot of money to boot!!! if i fcuk up in my proffesion, i either fix the problem for free or i see my client in court!! i was taught to spell incorrectly by my grade 2 teacher. should i be able to take her, the school board and the government to court for that. probably wouldn't fly.
!!!!

professionals have to buy malpractice insurance, do you??? You screw up, you might get your licences taken away or your clients go somewhere else. the 3 evils of life: your health, the law and money. That's probably the real reason why these jobs pay the most.

teachers should thanks the lord there is no 15% rollback.

here's an interesting question, what jobs are grossly overpaid??? ditch digger??? canucks 4th line, meaning the 1.5 million Linden???