New Youth HPL league

[djones]

My solution to the U18 division problem is to run a U17 division and a half season for U18 from Mar to July. That way the U18 players get their national year and clubs can stop worrying about losing players at those levels. If a U17 player is exceptional, U18 teams can call them up and if they are that good, they'll sign them to the roster.

The drop out at this age is more than most age groups (concentration on other matters, getting jobs, school etc...) but by cutting the teams from 10 to 6 or, this year, 9 to 6, really will allow the numbers to not be effective. There are teams in the U18B that are predominately made up of U17 players.

 

[djones]

Here's a question that has not been posted (I think) or answered. Is there really 8 quality bids? Does the committee know what the standard they are looking for off of paper? What happens if there isn't 8 quality applications? Will the committee only select 5 or 6?

USSDA has 70+ teams in their league. In 2009 the USSDA had 250+ clubs apply to get into the league... they selected 5!

USSF Turns Down Minnesota Thunder Academy and Shattuck Academy for Developmental Academy
The two academies in the article eventually got in the next year.

After watching a few videos of Ajax's youth set-up on UEFA.com and seeing how thorough their programs are, no wonder we are so far behind. Yes they have money behind them but can we not adopt some of what they do?

Inside the Ajax academy on UEFA.COM

Coaching the Ajax way on UEFA.COM

On a side note, I love what Bryan Roy says at the end of the second video.

"There is a reason why boys (players) with less talent and more will power make it more often than players with a lot of talent and more lazy."

That's why I don't put huge stock in selection of one team (BC Programs) at such young ages. That's why I support the HPL idea. I just feel that there needs to be tweeks to the age groups.

 

[coachrich]

All -

HPL is a great concept that's been discussed for years and it's fantastic to see it finally get some start of being real. Where the HPL fails for me is that it retains the status quo of Districts and Clubs and only puts them in a different league. These are the same Districts and Clubs for decades that have had the chance to do what the Charter Club program sets out. Some progressive clubs like Abby, Chilliwack, CMFSC and Surrey United (sure I missed some) made the head start years ago. Sadly the majority of Districts and Clubs have existed and been formed in political environments that had more to do about serfdoms than player development.

The status quo in the HPL is easy to see by the bids and the numerous threads out there that seem to focus on territory/geography and which Districts/Clubs have JV'ed together. Some JV'ed club agreements have been rumored to have board sizes based on the number of players that come from the JV partner clubs. What does that have to do with NPO membership run clubs? Also, the discussions of District and Clubs admin infrastructure just moving on up to HPL clubs doesn't really chance much does it? Unless the HPL selection committee is really firm and mandates the Charter Club requirements right off the bat, the HPL is going to struggle for a couple of years. Struggles that in the end impact players development.

Again, Is the HPL really about moving elite player development forward or just Metro/Selects under a different name and the same serfdoms? Thankfully the HPL has a almost free market system of no Rule 23 so those clubs that do well will attract the best players.

DJones -

Very hard to compare the Canada/US program development to any of the Euro models. They not only have the game culture that lets them cooperate together but more importantly their structures are professionally run and our sports businesses. As we know the US and Canada are not there yet.

The US is getting closer to the Euro model after their shake up after their success the last time they held the MWC. They took their profits created the US Soccer Foundation, a NPO charity to help fund the sport. restructured the USSF, let the youth structure expand to 4 pathways/associations that even included academies and so on. The US has shown they did it right not only on admin structure but created an environment that is professionally run that brings in sponsorship to benefit all levels. Also, much needed money that let all levels bring in overseas coaches and admin's.

In Canada are getting a small showing of well run clubs like Oakville SC where they have over 10,000 members and a annual budget of around $3.5M. Ottawa South SC Canada's only affiliated Nike Premier Club and a few others.

One of my hopes with the HPL is that the BCSA would avoid the status quo and open up their doors to new entities. As an example, TSS with their Sportstown club could have been one. Sadly, we all know how the Districts/Clubs and their interest in their own academies stops that from happening. Also, the BCSA attachment at the hips with the Caps. I'm quite certain that if a bid came in from a new entity that was a NPO that had $1M in the bank, sponsors ready to fund a major club facility and basically be a NPO Euro club model, that the BCSA would not let them in to the HPL.

As you can see, one of my recurring themes is how the admin structure of sports and how it is run impacts player development. IMO the admin side which includes the boards of the sport is the biggest reason the Euro's are so far ahead of us. They've had the time to develop that important part of admin'ing the game in parallel with all the years their players have been developing themselves on any piece on earth they could find. They've been able to create a club culture of cooperation....somewhat like our culture in hockey. alpine skiing, skating and curling . I really hope the admin side of the HPL will not reflect what we have seen so many times in the soccer community. The HPL is a good change but it will have to get the status quo to toe the line otherwise it's all been for naught once again.....

 

[GEORDIE]

Reading the news this morning, it appears Mission is NOT endorsing Abby but rather the Pitt Meadows/GEU bid.

So that leaves Abby with just a single endorsement in Chilliwack?

Here's a question: what happens with the clubs that submit a bid but are not awarded a franchise? Will they need to approach the closest geographical winning bid club and attempt to forge a relationship? What happens to their current programs? IS it possible they could be weakened?

For example, let's say Abby isn't awarded a franchise. By all accounts, Ian Knight, their current head coach, does a good job and is a stand up guy. There are going to be quite a few top-level coaching positions needed to be filled I would imagine in the HPL - would someone like Ian Knight be snapped up? Where does that leave Abby then? Same with a guy like Alan Errington - also in the Abby system.

Theres so many clubs trying to forge fake weak relationships with others in their efforts to get a HPL franchise. What happens if they fail to get a franchise ? Will they still stick together or go their seperate ways again.

 

[Regs]

That's a very good question.

 

[Dude]

The way I understand it, the bids are "Entities" outside of the club structure...at least in the Pitt Meadows / CCFC / everyone and their dog bid.

Essentially, a new society and BOD are formed for the bidding franchise. I assume there are equal members on the BOD from the forming clubs, but that's just an ssumption. Should the bid fail, the society ceases to exist, and the partnership ends too.

 

[Dude]

^No. The advertised costs are $2500 for HPL - where did you get 3-6000 from my post? $2500 is no different than playing metro and SYL in one year so this dad who won't bother with HPL maybe didn't participate in both. Anyway, we don't have to agree, I just don't see where you get such high numbers based on what I wrote? I said $1000-ish for SYL and combine that with a clubs metro costs and you get just over $2000.

I see HPL as well planned barring the u18 "issue" but what I don't know is if it is being well distributed to the parents/players? Which, if that's the reality, then maybe it is poorly planned because they'd be priority #1. But I really don't know how various clubs are informing their members. Or are not informing the members as the case may be.

All you have to do is a bit of math and you'll see $2500 is way low. That's about all.

 

[djones]

All -
DJones -

Very hard to compare the Canada/US program development to any of the Euro models. They not only have the game culture that lets them cooperate together but more importantly their structures are professionally run and our sports businesses. As we know the US and Canada are not there yet.

The US is getting closer to the Euro model after their shake up after their success the last time they held the MWC. They took their profits created the US Soccer Foundation, a NPO charity to help fund the sport. restructured the USSF, let the youth structure expand to 4 pathways/associations that even included academies and so on. The US has shown they did it right not only on admin structure but created an environment that is professionally run that brings in sponsorship to benefit all levels. Also, much needed money that let all levels bring in overseas coaches and admin's.

In Canada are getting a small showing of well run clubs like Oakville SC where they have over 10,000 members and a annual budget of around $3.5M. Ottawa South SC Canada's only affiliated Nike Premier Club and a few others.

CoachRich,

There is always going to be differences that we will never bridge but others that can be. That's what I was referring to.

For example:

Club conduct and playing philosophy
In the video, Ajax have a club philosophy and curriculum that covers player conduct as well as a playing philosophy that every youth team follows that support the 1st team. IS and CAN this be done here? Yes. CMF does this right from our Initiation Academy (U4-U8's) all the way to the adult teams. A curriculum is in place and database and being finalized for coaches to follow.

Schooling and housing
In the video, Ajax has housing and school system where players go to the same school (like the Whitecaps residency). Can it be done here? YES and is being done by some clubs. Players at CMF from the interior (7 or so players) are found homestays and go to the same school that around 50% of high school CMF players attend. Could and should this be offered to players that drive in from farther away when HPL starts a la junior hockey? At the older age groups I would hope so. There has been talk into trying to get the Coquitlam school district involved to allow these players to find ways of getting some form of credit for HPL to allow players time to train on their own to improve there strength, power and fitness during these blocks. Could they run a timetable that would allow players in certain age groups to meet up and take an active living course structured to the HPL level player with training, video analysis etc...? It's a possibility but people need think outside the box and show initiative.

Those are examples of what I meant as far as doing things like they do in Europe at places like Ajax.

The Oakville SC is an interesting situation. They have tremendous numbers and an impressive budget but don't really have highly competitive teams like other clubs in Ontario. They were one of the first clubs in the country to have a TD but I don't see many players from the Oakville SC club on the TFC academy rosters or their provincial teams (on the boys side of things). Their success could be different from what I or we see as success but obviously keeping that size of numbers happy and running so well is a huge success! Looking into how they do it would be advantageous to any future HPL group.

 

[bettermirror]

Here's a question that has not been posted (I think) or answered. Is there really 8 quality bids? Does the committee know what the standard they are looking for off of paper? What happens if there isn't 8 quality applications? Will the committee only select 5 or 6?

I think the quick answer, DJ, is that YES they do have something in mind. Will they select on 5 or 6? No. But what I can see them doing is allowing in 8 clubs provisionally and stating "you have 1 year to get organized" because there are other organizations that could satisfy requirements, especially if made aware there is a chance they can replace an incumbent that can't.

 

[Regs]

I wonder if any of the bids are really scrambling right now to get their shite together, I'm hearing of some big holes trying to be plugged behind the scenes.

What is the bid deadline again?

 

[Bifficus]

January 31

 

[bettermirror]

Schooling and housing
Can it be done here? YES and is being done by some clubs. Players at CMF from the interior (7 or so players) are found homestays and go to the same school that around 50% of high school CMF players attend. Could and should this be offered to players that drive in from farther away when HPL starts a la junior hockey? At the older age groups I would hope so. There has been talk into trying to get the Coquitlam school district involved to allow these players to find ways of getting some form of credit for HPL to allow players time to train on their own to improve there strength, power and fitness during these blocks.

This sort of thing is happening at Abbotsford Collegiate, and Chilliwack was arranging it last year as well. And yes, community sports should count as gym credits, but then what would the gym teachers do! I kid, I kid.

Kids from the interior playing for CMF! Sheesh. I wonder how many will play for the Okanagan team!?

 

[Mal]

Theres so many clubs trying to forge fake weak relationships with others in their efforts to get a HPL franchise. What happens if they fail to get a franchise ? Will they still stick together or go their seperate ways again.

Its morally wrong for clubs to merge for the sole purpose of being granted a franchise especially clubs whove never had any links with each other before. This practice will cause problems for all concerned and BC soccer should put a stop to it.

 

[coachrich]

CoachRich,

There is always going to be differences that we will never bridge but others that can be. That's what I was referring to.

For example:

Club conduct and playing philosophy
In the video, Ajax have a club philosophy and curriculum that covers player conduct as well as a playing philosophy that every youth team follows that support the 1st team. IS and CAN this be done here? Yes. CMF does this right from our Initiation Academy (U4-U8's) all the way to the adult teams. A curriculum is in place and database and being finalized for coaches to follow.

Schooling and housing
In the video, Ajax has housing and school system where players go to the same school (like the Whitecaps residency). Can it be done here? YES and is being done by some clubs. Players at CMF from the interior (7 or so players) are found homestays and go to the same school that around 50% of high school CMF players attend. Could and should this be offered to players that drive in from farther away when HPL starts a la junior hockey? At the older age groups I would hope so. There has been talk into trying to get the Coquitlam school district involved to allow these players to find ways of getting some form of credit for HPL to allow players time to train on their own to improve there strength, power and fitness during these blocks. Could they run a timetable that would allow players in certain age groups to meet up and take an active living course structured to the HPL level player with training, video analysis etc...? It's a possibility but people need think outside the box and show initiative.

Those are examples of what I meant as far as doing things like they do in Europe at places like Ajax.

The Oakville SC is an interesting situation. They have tremendous numbers and an impressive budget but don't really have highly competitive teams like other clubs in Ontario. They were one of the first clubs in the country to have a TD but I don't see many players from the Oakville SC club on the TFC academy rosters or their provincial teams (on the boys side of things). Their success could be different from what I or we see as success but obviously keeping that size of numbers happy and running so well is a huge success! Looking into how they do it would be advantageous to any future HPL group.

Yes, I agree there "differences that we will never bridge but others that can be"

I agree on both your points of "Club conduct and playing philosophy" and "Schooling and housing". I've seen how it works having been exposed to it when I was living and in a sports trade in the UK the early 70's.

I'm one of the 1st to acknowledge the success of the CMF model, those similar to CMF and others like NSGSC. My beef in the HPL is basically the same crowd of status quo that for decades had the chance to do what CMF and the likes have done but failed to do so. They the status quo didn't want to think out of the box. Hence there are still too many castles and not enough free land.

Besides the status quo being a big challenge, the other is the member fee threshold. How much money is a player going to pay into a club for a similar service when other clubs have sponsors to subsidized costs? How is the HPL going to avoid the shift from amateur to pro/am to pro without any major casualties? As we saw with the Olympic movement once you open the door to sponsorship you can't close the door.

3 HPL clubs having good sponsors is going to put the pressure on the other clubs to put up or die. Which is the best part of no Rule 23 as the free market system now exists for the benefit of the players and their families. Hopefully this free market system will be pushed far enough along in time that this HPL will have real franchises, real owners, pro staff, no member fees and resemble the Junior Hockey system. If it doesn't, IMO the HPL has failed.

Oakville is a interesting club and like you, I think development wise they could have done better. Espeically with the huge war chest they get every year. Jason De Vos is their new TD and rumor is Kara Lang may join him as well. JDV should do a good job as he had lots of exposure to the Euro trades system of sports.

Appreciate and admire your discussion as it's easy to see you have taken the time to go the extra mile by getting out of the box. There aren't too many around but those that are are the future if others will listen. Well done.

Here's some items that I've been following -

OSA Elite Youth Development League 2009.06.09
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10686257/2009.06.09 Elite Youth Development League.pdf

Ottawa United SC a Nike Premier affiliate club - Official Home of Ottawa South United Soccer Club

 

[bettermirror]

Its morally wrong for clubs to merge for the sole purpose of being granted a franchise especially clubs whove never had any links with each other before. This practice will cause problems for all concerned and BC soccer should put a stop to it.

Describe your morality issues with this in greater detail.

But, the HPL selection committee will put a stop to it by not granting the Pacific Athletic FC a spot in HPL. The other arrangements make sense. South Fraser, SurDel, Van-Rich...on and on. Even without a clear history of "unity" these clubs are all close to each other in proximity.

BCSA can and should not interfere in this regard. These clubs will make their own bed, sink or swim. Again, exactly why I see CMF, SUtd, and Mariners as the most assured to get in. They have the least politics, the most mobility, best tradition, geographical importance, adult programs, history, etc etc etc. All three are pretty much the most marketable too!

 

[bettermirror]

Coach Rich - Can you clarify why you believe these HPL clubs are district-run? What do you know about how the boards and budgets will be arranged for these clubs? We all know nothing about the details of these bids.

I will add though, that if one or two of the HPL clubs have a sponsor which lowers fees for players, and allows clubs to hire better coaches, the best players will go there. If other clubs follow suit, then great! The kids will then redistribute to the club nearest them. It's pretty simple. I wouldn't get too worked up over it.

 

[Mr Base]

Bettermirror I am not coach Rich but perhaps I can give you bit of info. You are right by saying that the districts run HPL. Each club has a rep in the district. From those reps, district board chooses three guys to represent the area. After Clubs are awored in HPL. HPL will choose group of people to run the HPL. Maybe every second year a new person will step in to represent the district on the board of HPL. For HPL start up coasts they might need a repayable loan from the clubs. After that players will pay for the coast of the HPL program. That how much I know about it. Again BC Soccer has the fingers in the deal. Things can change fast. It remains to be sean.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

This sort of thing is happening at Abbotsford Collegiate, and Chilliwack was arranging it last year as well. And yes, community sports should count as gym credits, but then what would the gym teachers do! I kid, I kid.

Kids from the interior playing for CMF! Sheesh. I wonder how many will play for the Okanagan team!?

All joking aside, Bettermirror.......I laugh when I get told that kids challenge PE because they are provincial players. Give me a break. I had one boy's parents challenge the PE because he was a provincial player and when I said I wanted him to do all the skill tests required in the other sport....I was told it was a done deal by the 'powers above me'. Pathetic.......the best players are players who are well-rounded and have played several sports over their years.........

 

[TulioMaravilha]

...the best players are players who are well-rounded and have played several sports over their years.........

Yup. Like Messi, CR7, Pele, Maradona, etc...My 2 cents, North Americans put too much stock in multi-sports. Great for general population, open to the debate if relevant for high level athletes. Back home, if you play soccer you wouldn't be doing anything else, same with volleyball, basketball, swimming, etc...

As for the kid, well, his loss. My kid is a provincial player as well and he loves PE at school for it gives him a chance to do other fun stuff with his buddies (and the girls).

 

[Dude]

So true, and I'm glad Captain pointed it out. And you know what? Our comparring w/ athletes from South American countries is like comparring apples to oranges. Spend a bit of time down there and you'll see exactly why the specialize...the few that are playing don't have much choice. The countries don't have nearly the abundance of facilities or opportunity in general.

I hate being the guys that says "back in the day", but back in the day, we all played a bunch of sports! And you know what? The crop of players born between 1965 - 1975 did pretty well...a lot of guys went on to bigger and better things in the game, certainly it seems more than are doing these days.

Now, not saying that the HPL model- at least on the season time- is all wrong. I actually like that part (I think it could be two months shorter, though), I just don't like the contract of exclusivity / specialization.