New Youth HPL league

[djones]

One of many good reasons for the HPL is the fact that changes and a raise in standards couldn't (and wouldn't) be made in the select or metro leagues by certain districts involved. It's all good and well to say to do this and that to revamp it but that was never going to happen. Get involved and you'll know why.

The out-of-district rule would have never been scrapped (this fight to rid this dumb rule has been fought for 20 years - one reason why the SYL came about) and asking certain districts to either merge or cease to compete in the select league would be like asking the NHL to reduce their franchises from 30 back to 21 when hockey was at its best. No district was going to step up and volunteer to step aside. Progress in the select league (boy's) has been very, very slow and in the Metro league (girl's) - it's been even slower. Asking Emperors to let go of their Empires doesn't happen - unless by force!

Is the HPL perfect? In my opinion, no. There are things that I think are wrong and hopefully will be changed in the next few years. In saying that, getting this off the ground and endorsed by all parties involved in the committee would have been challenging, to say the least, let alone getting everyone involved in soccer to agree. I believe, over time, some of these things will get worked out but sadly, some of them won't (concentration towards development of late-born players).

My hope is that this HPL will grow to involve more provinces. A Nation-wide league that is played under the same standards and rules like the Super Y/US Developmental with one website that will be the main league that Canadian Soccer Association and MLS/USL/PDL/University etc... use to draft players from to their programs. Our identification and developmental model that we have right now (NTC etc...) is not working and too many players are being missed or railroaded out of the process. More players can develop here rather than abroad and thus choose to play for Canada.

 

[Reccos]

Is another structure on top of the existing structures going to result in players capable of playing for Canada at an international level and where the team can get some success? No doubt the people behind this idea are good soccer people and successful coaches and team/club leaders who have to do something without alienating every other soccer group so clearly this has to be seen in that context.

I certainly would not trash the proposal but do wonder if they will get where they want to go in player development.

I still think there are lessons for soccer to be learned from youth hockey in Canada where if you look at the background of every player in the NHL they have seen it all - good, bad, ugly teams and the best coaching that is out there on the way to Major Junior Hockey or college hockey and then the pros. The key is that these players were always in highly competitive league situations not in development leagues or camps. That to me is what is missing in Canadian soccer thinking at these high levels.

Recently here in Hong Kong we are checking backgrounds of coaches coming here to coach for a client of ours and the background checks of recent UK coaches have a similar theme. Highly qualified with licences.....players heading to the pro leagues.... the person is a good player development coach. When we ask how their teams did in competitions the pace of the interview crashes to a halt and we get long pauses and umms and errs from what were very articulate soccer experts up to that point. It seems that it is not what they do. In doing this on two recent coaches the referees could not do say more than they did ok.

The other issue is with the licensing of coaches and this must be addressed. To do the coaching licences a coach must actually miss team games to do the sessions (at least that is how I saw it before). How does that advance soccer? Not sure how hockey does that part or even if there is an emphasis on the qualifications as opposed to a coach's prior experience and success with teams.

A player will get the most development by playing competitive games against top opponents where there is something meaningful to play for rather than just personal development. Does this proposal even address this? Not sure.

djones is always a very balanced and reasonable poster but one problem with Canada is the time and travel issue. Even in BC distances make it hard. Hockey does a lot of travel but the number of games they play is quite high so they don't go on a long trip for one game. SFU Athletic Director Lorne Davies (retired) talked about that all the time. How many top teams were within 200 miles of SFU versus what is in Canada.

 

[djones]

Is another structure on top of the existing structures going to result in players capable of playing for Canada at an international level and where the team can get some success? No doubt the people behind this idea are good soccer people and successful coaches and team/club leaders who have to do something without alienating every other soccer group so clearly this has to be seen in that context.

I certainly would not trash the proposal but do wonder if they will get where they want to go in player development.

I still think there are lessons for soccer to be learned from youth hockey in Canada where if you look at the background of every player in the NHL they have seen it all - good, bad, ugly teams and the best coaching that is out there on the way to Major Junior Hockey or college hockey and then the pros. The key is that these players were always in highly competitive league situations not in development leagues or camps. That to me is what is missing in Canadian soccer thinking at these high levels.

Recently here in Hong Kong we are checking backgrounds of coaches coming here to coach for a client of ours and the background checks of recent UK coaches have a similar theme. Highly qualified with licences.....players heading to the pro leagues.... the person is a good player development coach. When we ask how their teams did in competitions the pace of the interview crashes to a halt and we get long pauses and umms and errs from what were very articulate soccer experts up to that point. It seems that it is not what they do. In doing this on two recent coaches the referees could not do say more than they did ok.

The other issue is with the licensing of coaches and this must be addressed. To do the coaching licences a coach must actually miss team games to do the sessions (at least that is how I saw it before). How does that advance soccer? Not sure how hockey does that part or even if there is an emphasis on the qualifications as opposed to a coach's prior experience and success with teams.

A player will get the most development by playing competitive games against top opponents where there is something meaningful to play for rather than just personal development. Does this proposal even address this? Not sure.

djones is always a very balanced and reasonable poster but one problem with Canada is the time and travel issue. Even in BC distances make it hard. Hockey does a lot of travel but the number of games they play is quite high so they don't go on a long trip for one game. SFU Athletic Director Lorne Davies (retired) talked about that all the time. How many top teams were within 200 miles of SFU versus what is in Canada.

When I ment a nation-wide league I meant in terms of Conferences such as a Pacific Conference, a la junior hockey (BCJHL). IF it comes to fruition, than showcase tournaments (a la US Developmental) and a national championship would follow.

There is a Champions League tournament that they are looking into (Washington State and Oregen competing in this as we speak - group stages and all and they want us to join.) and also a pre -academy league that goes up and down the West Coast. The only problem with these leagues is that the US has the Aug to Aug birth-dates so our players would be essentially playing against older players.

 

[Reccos]

djones... that makes sense. I didn't read it as you are saying it.

 

[djones]

No problem. There's a lot of confusion about the pros and the cons regarding the league.

 

[sid]

djones... that makes sense. I didn't read it as you are saying it.

reccos
where have u been hiding?
your old pal
sid

 

[silver fox]

Who would be competing for the Provincial and Canadian championships that the Select/Metro teams currently are under this new format? If the HPL teams are, then why play past Thanksgiving. If they are not, then what are they competing for? If it's 8 teams of "elite players" just playing for a league title then that isn't good enough in my eyes!! It was mentioned earlier that some Select teams are shite. 1 or 2 of the 8 teams will be shite in this format too!
Also, what the hell is the point of going to a March to November schedule? The rest of Canada plays at that time because they HAVE to. We here in the lower mainland have a choice so it should be as it currently is. Good players can play with the Provincial team program in the spring/summer. The MLS' Commissioner said 1 or 2 months ago that they will eventually have to change their schedule so that it falls in line with the rest of the leagues in FIFA. In other words, roughly Aug. - Apr. with a winter break because the northern teams (Toronto, etc.) can't play in the dead of winter. It doesn't make sense to do the opposite.
Just curious, what are the pros and cons of the out-of-district rule? Does it not stop 1 or 2 teams from being stacked?

SF

 

[Outwest]

It's all about development, so the players will be shared equally among all teams and shuffled every year!

Removing the district restrictions means it will be an all out recruiting battle. At least families won't have to move or rent bogus apartments so get into those favoured districts....

 

[Mr Base]

Well said outwest. You are saying things as they are. The guy from BC Soccer group is postad a statemant on Bcsocccer.net regarding a new league. This will stop all that crap where gold sides are playing in Siver two just to win at all coasts. Players will come out. To me it looks like more and more the format of Washington and Origan. If we could get in to their top Tournamens we will have tuns of top level kids. As you all know we have tuns of kids but the development is behind. It will coast money but our kids will have a chance to compeat for the top jobs. Just keap Whitecaps out of youth development and all the kis will have a chance. Yet it up to us all to support the Whitecaps top team to keap the top level of soccer in this city.

 

[silver fox]

It's all about development, so the players will be shared equally among all teams and shuffled every year!

Removing the district restrictions means it will be an all out recruiting battle. At least families won't have to move or rent bogus apartments so get into those favoured districts....

Why would there be a recruiting battle if all players are shared equally and shuffled around? On top of that, what player wants to be shuffled around? The great thing about team sports is reaching a goal (cup win, etc.) with your teammates who are also friends from playing together for several seasons, not one offs. Yes, players leave their friends to change teams, but 99% of the time it's to go from a poor team to a good one, and it's their choice!!

With the current system of Select/Metro, you get 10-12 teams for each age group, including the Island. By cutting down to 8 teams for the HPL, are they really making it more competitive? Sure, it brings in an Interior team, but the bottom 2-3 teams in all the Select/Metro groups are there for a reason. They, for the most part, don't have players good enough to even make the better teams. So the end result is that the few games against bottom feeder teams are eliminated, but for the 8-9 top teams, things wouldn't change much in terms of the "eliteness" in league games.

 

[Outwest]

Why would there be a recruiting battle if all players are shared equally and shuffled around? On top of that, what player wants to be shuffled around? The great thing about team sports is reaching a goal (cup win, etc.) with your teammates who are also friends from playing together for several seasons, not one offs. Yes, players leave their friends to change teams, but 99% of the time it's to go from a poor team to a good one, and it's their choice!!

With the current system of Select/Metro, you get 10-12 teams for each age group, including the Island. By cutting down to 8 teams for the HPL, are they really making it more competitive? Sure, it brings in an Interior team, but the bottom 2-3 teams in all the Select/Metro groups are there for a reason. They, for the most part, don't have players good enough to even make the better teams. So the end result is that the few games against bottom feeder teams are eliminated, but for the 8-9 top teams, things wouldn't change much in terms of the "eliteness" in league games.

Sorry, that was a little joke about shuffling players. I think the more likely scenario is the one that plays out in La Liga and the EPL, there will be one or 2 "big spenders". The difference is it's the parents that will be spending on trips to US tournaments, showcases etc. for those high profile teams that will dangle these opportunities to recruit players.

Perhaps there's 2 levels of players we are dealing with. Hopefully those that have National Team potential are identified and they are only a tiny fraction of the HPL pool (and will be involved in other training forms). Most might be aiming for College opportunities. The question is, how much difference will this make to either group? Won't hurt I suppose ....

 

[RL RCD]

With the current system of Select/Metro, you get 10-12 teams for each age group, including the Island. By cutting down to 8 teams for the HPL, are they really making it more competitive?.

Exactly! Who are they trying to fool when they say that HPL is going to have 8 "elite" teams?

Eight "elite" teams made up from players that currently play in 10-12 teams in metro/select league!? Those are the same players, already playing in metro/slect league, and HPL would literally be a copy of the first 7 teams that play in metro/select league plus eventually a team from Interior. Yes, a few best players from the weakest teams in current metro/select league could eventually move to better teams.

But, we are talking here about the situation if EVERY player from current metro/select league wanted to play in HPL. Is that going to be the case? If yes, I am asking what is the point of starting HPL when we already have metro/select league with the same players, most likely even with the same teams. If no, then how many teams will be formed? Two!? Three!? Five!?

BCSA said that the cost would be the cost of a current metro/select league plus Y-league. That basically means that the cost for HPL will be most likely between $1,600 and $3,500 (some metro/select teams charge between $1,500 and $1,800, some significatnly less $300-$500 plus Y-league, without a trip to Florida, costs between $1,300 and $1,800 so to say at least $1,600 to most likely over $3,000 is quite realistic estimate).

I only see here another money grab, nothing else. That is not how soccer in this country is going to improve.

 

[bettermirror]

1. You would see kids from Alberta and Saskatchawan come play here.
2. By adding American sides it can only bring the level up. It would also bring in Kolowna, Kemloops,Penticton in to the same development.
3. Gold and select to play in the summer across the province. Silver level and Bronze play in the fall league. Select and gold could play indoor league in the winter.

1. How is a kid from the prairies going to be able to come play HPL???
2. American teams will join in as a "Champions League" type situation for regional championships only. They are not part of HPL.
3. Kelowna/Kamloops/Penticton can not compete at the metro level, let alone a more competitive HPL. An Okanagan team will at times do well, at times struggle.
4. In what world could an indoor league occur 11v11 throughout the lower mainland? ALSO - metro is currently FAR too diluted. 8 team HPL is perfect and should remain locked at that many, and simply increase/improve an HPL second division.

HPL is not a money-grab. It is all about developing elite soccer players. I am turned off by the cost though.

One comment someone said above "it is only as good as the coaches." TOO TRUE!

 

[bettermirror]

Exactly! Who are they trying to fool when they say that HPL is going to have 8 "elite" teams?

Eight "elite" teams made up from players that currently play in 10-12 teams in metro/select league!? Those are the same players, already playing in metro/slect league, and HPL would literally be a copy of the first 7 teams that play in metro/select league plus eventually a team from Interior. Yes, a few best players from the weakest teams in current metro/select league could eventually move to better teams.

I think something being overlooked is some of the poor management of metro which has directly lead to a desired change into a new HPL. Of course HPL realize it's going to have so many of the same players. But the failings of metro can't be ignored. It's very difficult to move a kid from u14 to u15 for a single game or last-minute call-up due to XXreasonXX, for example. The list goes on and on and on and on. Coaching standards, facility standards, club standards, development standards etc...

There is also a HUGE hole in player identification for NTC and Provincial team under the current system. Under the current format how can a kid from outside 1 hour drive possibly participate in NTC or Provincial team? (Yes, I recognize there are some families fortunate enough to be able to make this work). The HPL will address this by having "provincial/NTC windows" whereby players the province-wide can attend if they qualify. HPL will allow for fact-based player identification and invitation based on match-feedback from opposing coaches, referees, and scouts. I don't know how they will Identify players from the far reaches of the province...Simply put, the best players are NOT in provincial team. Some play SYL, some don't play at all for many reasons (cost, distance, desire...?).

 

[Captain Shamrock]

I wonder how much the coaches of these teams are going to make..........and BC Soccer.........

 

[bettermirror]

I wonder how much the coaches of these teams are going to make..........and BC Soccer.........

Don't have the answer for ya, BUT, if you want to attract top coaches you gotta pay them. Hopefully what it does is encourages talented coaches who don't have high certifications to go out and get it, and in turn for BCSA to provide more coaching courses. And by coaching courses I don't mean "certification" courses, but courses teaching specific aspects of the game. (ie, "online learning forum - open to all." IE, an example is that I would have attended BC SOccer Conference had I been able to participate online.)

The "pay them and they will come" thing isn't new to sports. Just look at Man City and the Yankees.

 

[Mr Base]

That's the only way coach will do his job if he gets paid to do it. As far kids from Kelona and Kemloops and Penticton and other BC towns not able to play in this league. That is a lough. Rob Friend from Kelowna is playing in Europe in one of the top leagues. Local lad with hart and drive. Also plays for Canada.
Bettermirror there is kids in gold level that could easy move up and play. If the parents understand, at the end if it all our kids have equal chance of making big clubs they will come forward.
New movment brings in fresh start. New Club in MLS is also a reason for our kids to play in higher level, money is good if you can make it. We must give it a try. I see good things comming out of it. Some guys might think it is waste of time.
All you have to do is take your team to Origan Soccer Tournament and than you will see where you stand. Just make sure if you are Gold one here to go to silver two level there. That is where it is at. We must step it up. I like the club system but it is time to move forward.

 

[bettermirror]

Base - I am well aware there are individually very talented players throughout the province not on metro teams. Very well aware. As a group, teams from Penticton/Kelowna can't compete. Kelowna won the provincial cup this year right? At u16 I think? Metro level. It's a one-off. Recently Okanagan teams have been forfeiting the provincial cup finals against the lower mainland metro teams because they know they can't compete as a whole. Individuals certainly, but not as teams.

Just look at how the teams from Okanagan do in the SYL - how many have qualified for the SYL finals? One or two total over the years?

Heck, how many even finish in the top 4?

 

[Mr Base]

Bettermirror You know why they do not play in the A or B cup games. All you have to do is film the games, go back and sit down and watch it. It is clear why. We all know what goes on. As a coach for many years i see the big picture. City like Kelowna could run A league team with out any help from any one. Their youth plays in PCSL, just go to PCSL.org and take a look at the standings it will crearly open up your eyes. It is all about fareness in this sport. The problem is they have select kids playing in silver two games to win the B cup. It is only to lack of power by BC Soccer to send better kids to upper levels to make it fun for kids equaly.
By adding this league will give kids from here to play for Kelowna or any othe side to be given a chance. Due to control is is not there now. By adding a league will make select people look over their sholder and it will send them looking for good players in lower levels to
bring to select program. In my opinion the bigger the player base is the better it is. Lats of kids are late developers. This will give them a chance. Clubs are bringing in five out of district kids now to play in select program. This will open it for all the kids.

 

[bettermirror]

1. I do know why they don't compete in the A cup. Because they can't compete as a group. The Okanagan teams do just fine in the B Cup provincial games (ie, Penticton finished 2nd last year @ u14).
2. The out-of-district max is 3 per team. So no, select/metro teams aren't bringing in 5.
3. Do you realize I am in support of HPL?

Kids from Kelowna etc have had plenty of chances to compete - they had a program in the SYL. They didn't fair very well. After some research it seems Kelowna, Penticton, and Kamloops didn't know how to play nicey with each other so a lot of kids who should have been in SYL, were restricted from doing so for a variety of reasons. I hope they can sort this out with HPL!

HPL does open the door due to the removal of the district boundaries.