Canada MNT: Road to 2018

[Dude]

This- " 1998: Canada finishes 6th. Essentially same as 1990 when there was a Canadian League. Central America returns to peace and both Mexico and USA compete as usual."- is not entirely accurate. Not at all accurate.

Again, the US was nowhere to be found on the footballing scene until 1990, and they bought themselves in for 1994. They are proof that with enough money, a nation can qualify. They are proof that a strong Domestic league is essential, because you can't tell me that the system the US teaches and plays is in any way what you'd envision. So...based on that alone, your strong contention that our biggest issues are coaching before the absence of a domestic league...well...not true.

Carry on.

 

[Soccer Coach]

First of all. @Dude. You have to have in your mind that I am as Canadian as you are. There is really no difference. It is only in your mind. I am also ventured to say that I love the country more than you do. Remember I have chosen to live here. I could easily be living in the United States, Mexico, Argentina, Spain, Sweden, but I have chosen Canada as my country. You were born here, but I have chosen by my decision to be Canadian.

Second, I can see that there is generosity in your heart. The gifts to poor kids, your rides to battle cancer, and your coaching of little girls. Good for you.

Third, please do not insult. I have never called your names. Do you think that your little girls would be proud of you? I have a different opinion than you in a subject that matters to both of us, but no need to insult.

So without further ado, returning to the ice cream issue. You state that your girls come out of the sideline "demanding" ice cream every time that they do a move.

This is exactly where we are behind than the rest of the world. I quote Laureano Ruiz (Barcelona youth academy director) to make the point:

"...Watching a rough sea crashing against the rocks, or admiring a paint by Picasso or a beautiful sunset does not bring monetary reward but gives great satisfaction and pleasure. These are the same feelings when you play with quality and dignity. It is a mixture of pride and a job well done and you will experience the same sensations as when you see the works of others, albeit Picasso or Mother Nature".

Your players should do their moves not because of the ice cream, but because "it feels good" and because "they decide themselves" that it is the best move at that situation in the game, not because there is a coach waiting for ice cream on the sidelines.

I told you before. Let your girls simply play and enjoy the contact with the ball. Let them dribble, experiment, do what they think themselves is right.

We teach our boys and girls too quickly to play organized, play as a team, play fast, play at high tempo with one or two touches, play to satisfy the coach; play physical; to be a soccer player means to be an athlete; by the time that they are 12 those poor kids have been completely negated the opportunity to truly play and express themselves and brain-washed to think that the game should be played in a distorted manner and that to be a good soccer player you need to be an athlete.


This mentality that soccer is a game for athletes it is very entrenched in our soccer fabric. It continues to be at least in the women's game. Perhaps Benito can start to change this in the men side.

Herdman’s decade-long plan for women’s soccer in Canada is summed up in four words: “More Sinclairs, more often.”

I once had a brief conversation with Geoff Catliff (who I appreciate and respect and embodies the traditional Canadian style"), and he said: I paraphrase: "I still beleive that the best way to score is with a long aerial cross that I can head; it is simple undenfedable".

How do we convey to people that there are other ways to play the game? that the best goal is a simple delicate pass to the net? that to be a soccer player is to control the ball with grace and elegance? How do we convey to people that the game is more of an art form? Until we start to appreciate these subtelties is when we are going to move forward

and the artful "Tecatitos" of Mexico will keep outplaying the athletic "Larins" of Canada or the creative "Lady Andrades of Colombia" beating the athletic "Sinclairs" of Canada.

 

[Dude]

You are an idiot. I feel like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall with you.

Do you really think they are, by now, for lack of a better description, akin to Pavlov's Dog? Seriously?

It is about camaraderie!

They play with skill because they can, and they do it because they like having the ball. That is called- wait for it- DEVELOPMENT.

Do you really think they now come to a match, rubbing their hands, thinking, "Boy oh boy, if I score with my left today, coach Dude will buy us ice cream..."?

NO!

I buy them ice cream now because it's something fun we do. They bug me now, "Hey, Coach Dude, did you see that? I skinned that girl! Megged her! You owe me ice cream."

They are 13 now, do you really think they mean that I owe them ice cream? Do you really think they are using skills to get ice cream? Now?

Back then, it was a simple reward, a way to get them doing something they weren't comfortable doing. In a match, not training. It gave us a reason to celebrate a little girl's success on the pitch. Now? They do it because they can. Simple. It's second nature.

But they remember the original rules, and aren't shy about reminding me. And I love it. It shows how far we've come, and that we've developed a good bond. Plus, we go for ice cream. Because it's fun. And ice cream tastes good.

Now, you seem to correlate my rewarding girls with ice cream- at 8- now means that at 13 I don't let them "dribble, experiment, do what they think themselves is right". Seriously, are you on crack? How do you get from one conclusion to the other? What makes you think I don't allow them to simply play freely?

Wow...you really think highly of yourself, don't you?

I feel like I'm speaking to a simpleton to try and explain this to you, but that's basically, it. You are a simpleton. An idiot.

They wouldn't be proud of me...they'd be saying, "Coach Dude, why are you letting that idiot draw you into an e-fight? For that, you owe us ice cream. And never, ever e-fight with that simpleton again."

Alas, I think I'll be drawn in. Something tells me this isn't the last time you prove to me you are an idiot.

 

[Dude]

Oh, and this:

"First of all. @Dude. You have to have in your mind that I am as Canadian as you are. There is really no difference. It is only in your mind. I am also ventured to say that I love the country more than you do. Remember I have chosen to live here. I could easily be living in the United States, Mexico, Argentina, Spain, Sweden, but I have chosen Canada as my country. You were born here, but I have chosen by my decision to be Canadian."

My wife is an immigrant. Her dad brought her and 7 other kids over from Fiji during political strife. Greatest man I knew. To that point, never have felt you need to be born here to be Canadian.

But you know, we'd watch the Canadian team play- and lose- and he'd be right there with me in disappointment, but he'd NEVER cheer for the other team. No way.

And, so you know...just as you can choose other countries to live in, my skill set allows me the same opportunities. I've chosen to live here. Now, I may yet chose to live elsewhere for the different life experiences (ironically, I'd love to live in Argentina), but Canada will always be home.

Truthfully, I'm not here to try and debate you on how much you do and don't love this country. Or convince you how much I do. I just find it weird. You say you love this country, yet you will cheer against them. Baffling. Almost like you find it convenient to be Canadian in some ways, but not others. Odd.

 

[Regs]

I once had a brief conversation with Geoff Catliff (who I appreciate and respect and embodies the traditional Canadian style"), and he said: I paraphrase: "I still beleive that the best way to score is with a long aerial cross that I can head; it is simple undenfedable".

Geoff?

Did you discuss hockey with Keith Gretzky too?

 

[Dude]

"I still beleive that the best way to score is with a long aerial cross that I can head; it is simple undenfedable"- for him it pretty much was. It's true. The percentages favored him scoring on an aerial play, because he was a giant, and because he was so good in the air.

We are talking about John, right?

Does he even have a brother named Geoff? Or Jeff?

 

[Regs]

Does he even have a brother named Geoff?

Geoff is a director at the VMSL - long time Westside member.

 

[Soccer Coach]

Just to correct, I meant John Catliff. One of the top Canadian Soccer scorers. Perhaps the best striker that Canada has produced. I mean this with respect.

 

[Soccer Coach]

@Dude, really man, there is no need to insult. Is not politeness one of our core Canadian values?
We can disagree without using insults and derisive language. I will expand on the previous argument about the current Canadian team having the same calibre than the 1986 to 1994 teams. I will discuss the issue of alliance on later day because I stated this on purpose to bring other issue "hot" issue to the table.
I really hope that you concentrate on the topic and that if you do not agree do not go into a personal tirade.
I my opinion, it is really important for people not to have the misguided belief that the past was better for soccer in Canada and that having a league in itself will guarantee progress. After all almost every country in the world has a soccer league and the vast majority do poorly. I professional soccer league does not guarantee World Cup qualification.

 

[Soccer Coach]

The argument that many people propose is that Canadian players and teams from the 1982 to 1994 era were vastly superior than the current squad.
The evidence to support this claim is the successful qualification to the 1986 World Cup and the near qualification to the 1994 World Cup.
It is further argued that the existence of NASL and CSL bolstered the position of Canada with respect to the other CONCACAF nations. It is argued that once the NASL and CSL disbanded; then Canadian soccer started a steady decline.
The conclusion that some people argue is that once we have our own domestic league; our teams and players will return to prominence in the CONCACAF region and will qualify to the World Cup.

There are four major inconsistencies with this line of reasoning.
1) The 1990 World Cup qualification.
People convenient ignore this qualification process. Canada played poorly and even did not make to the final round. Canada got eliminated by Guatemala. There was 1-0 loss in Guatemala City. Then in Vancouver, the Canadian team was trailing 2-0 for most of the game until it made an unlikely come back in the last 25 minutes which included a dubious penalty and a goalie error. However, Canada had an early exit.

2) The CSL was in operation during the 1990 Qualification process.
Most of the Canadian players were playing in the CSL, but they showed poorly in the 1990 qualifying games Thus, the domestic league did not help them to qualify for the world cup.

3) The 1970 to 1982 World Qualification process and the NASL.
Canada got eliminated in each of them. I do not include 1966 and 1962 because Canada decided not to participate during those events. On all of the four events Canada was not even a contestant, and in fact in many of them; Canada finishes on the last place. This is important because many Canadian players are playing in the NASL during that period.
For example, Bruce Wilson, played for the Vancouver Whitecaps from 1974 to 1977, the Chicago Sting in 1978 and 1979, the New York Cosmos in 1980, and the Toronto Blizzard from 1981 to 1984. He was a six-time all-star selection, including three first-team selections (Vancouver in '77, Chicago in '79, Toronto in '84).

We can not argue that Canadian players were not playing in professional leagues. They were and they were getting eliminated decisively.

4) The exaggerated near qualification to the 1994 World Cup.
Without getting into small details, FIFA reorganized the spots for each confederation. Canada would have been directly eliminated under previous allocations, but this time it was given play-offs with Oceania and Commebol. Chile had been banned. There was no expectation that a Concacaf team would beat Oceania team and then would beat a Commebol team. Argentina finished second in their group and then was sent to the play-offs.

There was simply no way that Canada could beat Australia and then Argentina with Maradona. The CSL once again did not help with this qualification process.

It is clear that these observations put doubt into the story of a consistently strong Canadian team propelled by the existence of domestic leagues.

If the story does not hold; then we need to look at alternative explanations.
Why Canada qualified in the 1986? How Canada qualified? Was anything different in 1986?

The answer to the later question is: yes. There were two significant differences.
The first difference is that Mexico was absent from the 1986 and 1990 qualification process. This helped Canada.
The second difference is Central America had major civil wars that affected their national teams. We might not be able to fully see the grasp of this since it is distant and not well documented here. However, it is well documented in Central America and Mexico. For example, Salvadorean players had to pay for their own uniforms, had to borrow balls from the opposing teams to do warm ups, their trips to games would take longer, games would be played in other neutral countries or simply cancelled; practices would be cut short due to security concerns; Key players would be cut from national teams if they would not ally with the military regimes.

The chaos of the region gave Canada the false sense of advancement. People think that Canada improved, but in reality Canadians were simply playing teams that were experiencing huge constraints.

I quote the goal keeper from El Salvador: "Cuando llegamos, resulta que todos los equipos llevaban regalos para los rivales, que una camisa, que una bandera y hasta un libro con la historia de su fútbol... Nosotros, por supuesto, no llevábamos ni pines, ni nada de nada... Entonces vi un pino y corté un trozo de madera del árbol y con una navaja le puse las letras de El Salvador. Eso les dimos".

"When we arrived to the 1982 World Cup, every team brought gifts, like shirts, flags, books about history of soccer... we came with nothing, not even shirts to give... thus, I saw a little bush. I cut a piece from it, and I put El Salvador and this we gave to them.

In summary, the weakening of Central American teams combined with the absence of Mexico provided better results for Canada.

The next issue to consider is the Qualification of the 1986 World Cup. How did it happen? Was it convincingly? Was Canada dictating the games?

The evidence suggests that this was not the case.
Canada won against Honduras with two corner kicks. Honduras played better and Randy Samuels literally saved a goal on the line.


Canada held Costa Rica to 1-1 draw after a goal with a long cross and a header.


Canada also beat Guatemala with a long ball from the keeper and another corner kick.


Essentially most of the World Cup 1986 campaign consisted of defending and then scoring goals in corner kicks, free kicks or long balls and crosses to the box. Nothing wrong with this in itself, the problem is that you can not keep qualyfing with this approach and principle. If you try this over and over. Eventually it will catch up to you as other teams learn to defend them better.

It is no surprise that Canada did not score a goal in the World Cup in 1986, and then got early elimination in 1990. It is simple a natural and logical consequence.

It is simply a myth that Canadian teams and players were dominating their counterpart players and teams in CONCACAF during the 1986 to 1994 era, or that we have gone backwards, or that the CSL or NSL helped Canada.

The problem is not the lack of a league (although it surely could help). The problem is the mentality about the game. The lack of ball control and technique. The emphasis on physicality over the developing of possession. Once this is fixed; the better results will follow.

I really hope that Canada one day makes it to the World Cup, but it will not happen with the current approach and mentality.

 

[Regs]

Our first step to improvement would be to deport irritating fcukers like yourself who go to Canada games to support the opposition.

Enough with your trolling in here - start a new thread if you must but if you post in here again, you'll receive a TTP time-out.

Go Canada Go

 

[Dude]

You are pointing out the obvious that people here have forever. You and your opinions are nothing new or special.

The fact is you're being a conplete dick and have no clue that you are.

Our history, especially locally, may not measure up to any accomplished soccer nation. We know that. You seem to think we don't know that, but we do. We are nonetheless still proud of it, and when an asshole like you comes along and tears down what little we have, it's extremely insulting. It'd be like any of us going to England and criticizing their hockey system.

So, if you can't see how you are being insulting, fine. You are living in your own little world where you think your words are revolutionary ideas, but they aren't.

Don't know what else to tell you, except try not being a dick.

 

[Regs]

Our first step to improvement would be to deport irritating fcukers like yourself who go to Canada games to support the opposition.

Enough with your trolling in here - start a new thread if you must but if you post in here again, you'll receive a TTP time-out.

Go Canada Go

Reminder to you @Soccer Coach - do not post a reply here.

Thank you.

 

[LION]

Regs with the biggest mic drop off all.
"Pick up that mic and you are gone buddy"

Haha.

Dude. You slayed him many different ways. Soccer coach is a rec team div2 coach. That's it and that's all.
It's sick that he talks down on Canadian soccer and how we all conceptualize the game, and doesn't cheer for his own country when it comes to the game he loves. Sick. I don't get it. In itself that is the issue we have in our game. "Canada sucks at soccer and laugh at the system" then go coach a rec team and points fingers at other coaches etc.
It's completely nuts. Doesn't help in the simplest ways.


My opinion. A CSL or a local "semi pro" league would change the chance of success to our national team. Simple as this, a kid is a stud at both soccer and hockey. Soccer does have a local pro team and he has a chance of making it, he chooses soccer over hockey.
That player is now not lost and continues playing at a high level. Raising his own level and the others around him as there is now more competition for the 2-3 spots in his position on that team. Levels raise cause of this. Done.

 

[Dude]

It really is that simple, but you forgot one critical point.

All coaches MUST now reward simple tasks with ice cream. All. No exceptions. Florio should be rewarding Henry w/ a small dipped cone if he can somehow manage to connect a pass to Hutchinson that he doesn't have to either hold up his run to receive, or tackle some Mexican to win back. If he did, I guarantee Henry would be more successful, and we'd make the World Cup.

Really, it's that easy.

Seriously.

~LongliveTTP.

 

[LION]

Lol.

Yes. Or how about, if you connect that pass and hold a clean sheet, you may get thousands of dollars a week in salary from a pro team in Europe. If it's not a gelato at Dolce Amores on commercial drive, then perhaps money might give our kids incentive.

Naw. Who am I kidding. Why would Anyone ever dangle a carrot to get someone to work towards something. To reward them with something tangible. Doesn't make sense to me. You obviously don't understand soccer dude. Or life.

 

[Dude]

Nope.

Working for incentives? You mean like, the better you are at work, the more you are paid? Nah, not me. Never understood that concept.

(Note to Soccer Coach, the above is called "sarcasm", or "being witty". It's not that witty, but it is a bit witty.)

~justryingtohelpasmoothreentrybacktoTTPnextweek.

 

[LION]

ok. Story time. - " the road is steep, and the vast truly don't have a heart beat for soccer in Canada"

So our North Delta masters team and u21 team qualified for provincials. (u21 by luck, as FVSL didn't take all 4 spots allocated to them)

Both teams draw Saanich at home first round. We go to book our Home field, Delsom, and its booked by baseball as softball is in full swing now. (they use the fields to warm up on) I am then told we can move to another grass field or a turf field in South Delta.
I push hard to get the home field and we get it. Great stuff!
Strange to me that we would get pushed from our home park for the last and biggest game of the season for both masters and u21, but they had it booked. (in my e-mail I explain that it took 8 months of soccer to even qualify and we luckily got a home draw against an Island team, and doesn't make sense to go play on grass/neutral field elsewhere, can we not work this out)

Moving on, We have the field, but learning that we do not have access to the changerooms/showers. And baseball isn't budging on this.
They use the rooms for the umpires to change in and leave all their gear. I get it.

picture old Newton rooms, two changerooms below, with one big room up top. We are told to use the one room up top. Great. It will work. I am happy we even get that. Just want to show here that the people don't care its BC provincial soccer. The community that books the field doesn't care. So Saanich might get the one room up top, no showers to change in. And our mens teams will change in the open, in the dug outs by the soccer field, when a girls tournament is going on. Smart.

Same time, its a 30 min window before and after each game we were asking for.
They rather displace 40 men, x 2 games, so their 4-8 umpires through the day can use 2 full size locker rooms with showers to change in?

Saanich will now go back to their bus, wet (as its supposed to rain) and all after a game with no access to showers or anything.
I know this is first world problems. But to me, it shows how people don't care about soccer. at all.

You are telling me if our local baseball team is in a provincial game and they need the fields/rooms for their game that our club would say no? I would be there with my family showing them the support and celebrating our local teams successes! why are local sports not working together and putting a provincial matches on a pedestal? Why not cross promote it? why not Delta Parks and Rec have these games on their website and ask families to come out and support their local soccer team?
Why is it such a battle to get the change rooms that we have used for 9 months now for a 30 min window on a home provincial cup match? Why isn't this all looked at as a positive for our boys, our community and club? no matter what sport it is.

These kids have played club soccer since 5 years old and this is maybe the highest level/biggest game they have every played in, and they are now changing in the rain on the sideline? with a girls tourney going on in the same park?
Am I missing something here? (as both teams can't use that one room upstairs at same time, weird vibes sharing a room, pre or post game)

You are telling me our local hockey team makes provincials and hosts an island team, but the ringette refs need the rooms and have it booked. Sorry North Delta Hockey, but your boys will have to change in the halls of the building. As our refs need to change in the locker rooms. You guys can use the common room for both teams.
Would this ever ever ever happen in hockey?
No, its hockey, people care, and I think the "ringette" side would see the bigger picture and say, go get em ND, of course you guys get the rooms, enjoy your last game of the year and make ND proud.

Come on. This in itself is a massive issue and I only am opening up about the details about this, as I know soccer always battles softball this time of year. Its so black and white and its wrong.
Communities need to get behind their local teams and put the successful ones on a pedestal. Not put them up against each other.

hockey family it is. agh.

Anyone have insight on this? how to work with baseball? chance of changing mentalities? or just tell me to give up now and save a few grey hairs! ? frick sakes.

 

[LION]

I truly wanted to host the away teams with rooms and all. just makes it bush to me. I know lots of teams don't even have rooms. I get it. And in the end it will work out fine. Just wanting to high light more the over all mentality here in Canada and how BC cup games are not even on the communities radar.
(Mrs.Parks manager on the other side of the e-mail gives two shits in her cozy delta parks job I'm sure)
Fields booked, rooms are booked, reply, next e-mail.

Any common sense when managing local parks etc? or is everyone robots in these city jobs? (check in, check out)

 

[Regs]

TTP Section Update:

@kurgan @Dude @Gurps @machel @Sniffer @Ballbaby @trece verde @utah @LION @Rangerforever

I've got the tickets now, we have the first 4 COMPLETE rows in section 209/210 plus 5 more in the 5th row of section 210

For those of you who were a part of the Mexico game, these are the exact same seats except we have the extended seats in the rows towards the Canada bench.

There is money to give back to everyone as we had over 50 tix so we received a better discount - per ticket price worked out to $31.50

I'll be in touch with everyone over the next couple of days to send you your tickets and get refund info.

Go Canada Go

Cheers,

Regs.