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Canada MNT: Road to 2018
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cascadesoccer
Well-Known Member
Can't stop a train when its in motion.
Is CMNT being held back because of 'pay to play'?
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...rsity-problem-world-football?CMP=share_btn_fb
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...rsity-problem-world-football?CMP=share_btn_fb
Yes, I've been on that soap-box ever since the HPL / BCPL came into play.
In the US the issue is actually masked; they have such a deep pool of athletic talent that they can afford to have the pay-to-play system, and still come out of it with some good talent. Are they missing some? For sure, they would have even more fall through the cracks that us, but in the end, at the top of their development pyramid, they have enough to make the US a viable soccer nation.
(Not to mention a legitimate professional domestic league, which is the next level of this discussion).
For Canada, IMO, besides actually development coaching methods / technical training, we are killing ourselves w/ the pay-to-play model. To reach the top of the soccer pyramid here, players need to devote their time exclusively to soccer. I don't necessarily have an issue w/ this. I do have an issue with trying to force feed this practice, as we are currently doing across most clubs, but in the end, a player who truly loves the game will end up devoting every waking moment to it. That is natural.
What I have a huge issue with is our club level "requirement" that these kids are in academy, at an extra cost, then when they make it to the BCPL level, the registration cost is a massive hurdle for many.
What we end up doing is discouraging many from even pursuing the BCPL route, or elite level football altogether, and we have no idea how many are falling through. I suspect, especially in Surrey, the number is substantial. So what ends up happening is that a player with some good skills, but maybe not top skills, ends up gobbling up that opportunity because his parents are well-off enough to finance all the extras.
Now, a bit of a rant: I HATE the constant comparisons I hear to hockey and it's model. Total bullshit, and you simply can't compare them, especially in this country. The hockey pyramid here is basically the same issue in the States as outlined in this article, but multiplied to a greater extent. We have a pool of youth players in hockey in Canada so large that we can both afford to lose many families to attrition because of costs, and even more to burn-out. At the top still stands the deepest and most elite level in the hockey world. So, when I hear soccer people say, "Well, in Hockey they charge $$$ to play Rep, why not in soccer?" Well, the math alone simply doesn't support it. There are fewer pathways available to Canadian Soccer players, and fewer jobs at the end of the rainbow. In Hockey, you can fail in Canada, then go to Europe and enjoy a long, profitable career. Not so for the Canadian Soccer player. In Soccer, the kids are all battling for crumbs. This is why we can't afford to lose our best simply due to costs, and pricing them out of the opportunity.
In the US the issue is actually masked; they have such a deep pool of athletic talent that they can afford to have the pay-to-play system, and still come out of it with some good talent. Are they missing some? For sure, they would have even more fall through the cracks that us, but in the end, at the top of their development pyramid, they have enough to make the US a viable soccer nation.
(Not to mention a legitimate professional domestic league, which is the next level of this discussion).
For Canada, IMO, besides actually development coaching methods / technical training, we are killing ourselves w/ the pay-to-play model. To reach the top of the soccer pyramid here, players need to devote their time exclusively to soccer. I don't necessarily have an issue w/ this. I do have an issue with trying to force feed this practice, as we are currently doing across most clubs, but in the end, a player who truly loves the game will end up devoting every waking moment to it. That is natural.
What I have a huge issue with is our club level "requirement" that these kids are in academy, at an extra cost, then when they make it to the BCPL level, the registration cost is a massive hurdle for many.
What we end up doing is discouraging many from even pursuing the BCPL route, or elite level football altogether, and we have no idea how many are falling through. I suspect, especially in Surrey, the number is substantial. So what ends up happening is that a player with some good skills, but maybe not top skills, ends up gobbling up that opportunity because his parents are well-off enough to finance all the extras.
Now, a bit of a rant: I HATE the constant comparisons I hear to hockey and it's model. Total bullshit, and you simply can't compare them, especially in this country. The hockey pyramid here is basically the same issue in the States as outlined in this article, but multiplied to a greater extent. We have a pool of youth players in hockey in Canada so large that we can both afford to lose many families to attrition because of costs, and even more to burn-out. At the top still stands the deepest and most elite level in the hockey world. So, when I hear soccer people say, "Well, in Hockey they charge $$$ to play Rep, why not in soccer?" Well, the math alone simply doesn't support it. There are fewer pathways available to Canadian Soccer players, and fewer jobs at the end of the rainbow. In Hockey, you can fail in Canada, then go to Europe and enjoy a long, profitable career. Not so for the Canadian Soccer player. In Soccer, the kids are all battling for crumbs. This is why we can't afford to lose our best simply due to costs, and pricing them out of the opportunity.
Best quote of the article right at the beginning. I'd say we are guilty of the exact same crime to the game in Canada:
"Soccer is the world’s great democratic game, whose best stars have come from the world’s slums, ghettos and favelas. And yet in the US the path to the top is often determined by how many zeroes a parent can write in their checkbook."
I find myself going through this article nodding my head at nearly everything written.
That said, I've been wrong before...
“We need someone to speak up – [Jürgen] Klinsmann or whatever – and say: ‘Here are the players we are looking for, and here’s how the system should be built,’” Borge says. “We have coaches who need to recruit talent from all over the nation and invest in the ODP and let them be creative and let the let them play freely. It takes huge dedication and it takes money but we have the money at US Soccer.”
For as much as I believe @Soccer Coach is a pompus ass who likes to portray himself as a messiah to the poor in his neighbourhood, while also making outlandish and unfounded claims about level of intellect (footballing and otherwise) being somehow linked to density and living in a cosmopolitan area, I think this is a topic we could agree on.
That said, I've been wrong before...
Rangerforever
Well-Known Member
Agreed bud.
But man, I see a lot a parents write huge cheques in hockey, and I mean HUGE, and sometimes I think the best that kid is going to get is a partial ride at a Div. 3 school in Idaho.
Maybe.
But man, I see a lot a parents write huge cheques in hockey, and I mean HUGE, and sometimes I think the best that kid is going to get is a partial ride at a Div. 3 school in Idaho.
Maybe.
True- but that only supports my theory on the endless supply of good hockey players we have. It doesn't seem to matter.
There is an economic argument that applies- the law of increasing and decreasing returns.
In hockey, I still don't think they're reached the point where they are at the top of the curve, and looking down...while in soccer we are clearly on the wrong side, into laws of decreasing returns.
There is an economic argument that applies- the law of increasing and decreasing returns.
In hockey, I still don't think they're reached the point where they are at the top of the curve, and looking down...while in soccer we are clearly on the wrong side, into laws of decreasing returns.
Soccer Coach
Well-Known Member
@Dude..... I hear my name. Whao! you do not waste any opportunity to throw dirt at Soccer Coach. What he has done to you?
FIFA Published the last Rankings. It is very interesting. One from COMMEBOL followed by one from UEFA. In Concacaf, we have Mexico at 16. I saw the game yesterday between Chlle and Mexico. Chile played better, but Mexico won thanks to Chicharito's goal.
Where is Canada?
The ONLY industrialized country among a sea of African and Caribean developing nations. We are in the likes of Gabon, Botswana, Togo. Even Quatar and China have stronger teams that Canada.
The ones that break my heart is to be below Saint Keat and Nevis. The SMALLEST COUNTRY in the Westerm Hemisphere with a mere population of 56,000 people. Just smaller than New Westminster. Even Surrey and Richmond have more population and money. Their income is about $16,000 per capita.
Those players did not have coaches given them ice cream on the side or had them telling them about the "right" and "wrong' way to play the game or people asking them to speed the play to suboptimal levels. They just played like most people in the favelas, ghettos, and slums play.
I appreciate your enthusiasm @Dude. I really do. It is hard for me to tell you that you are part of the problem here. You, as most coaches in this country, do more harm than good by intervening and creating this super artificial activities and exercises and drills and incentives (ice cream), when the best teacher of the game is the game itself. I really hope that one day you really try this approach in your practices. Just let them play and change the conditions of the small sided (street games). Humans sooner or later learn by themselves how to play the game well. There is no need to tell them much except to help them get better ball control. There is no magic formula.
2016 (100 %) 2015 (50 %) 2014 (30 %) 2013 (20 %)
Rank Team Total Points Previous Points +/- Positions Avg. AVG WGT Avg. AVG WGT Avg. AVG WGT Avg. AVG WGT
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
92
93
94
95
96
Idiot,
1. Do you even read anything I write? The latest posts were about the over pricing of pay per play soccer in this country, and how it's having a negative effect. Not coaching. At all.
2. You have never seen me coach. You have no idea how much time I do devote to free play, or how much to technical / tactical. Literally you have zero basis to form an opinion.
Meanwhile, you coach a bunch of grown-ups to a few wins in a shitty amateur league and think you are a massiah.
You are still a clueless ass.
1. Do you even read anything I write? The latest posts were about the over pricing of pay per play soccer in this country, and how it's having a negative effect. Not coaching. At all.
2. You have never seen me coach. You have no idea how much time I do devote to free play, or how much to technical / tactical. Literally you have zero basis to form an opinion.
Meanwhile, you coach a bunch of grown-ups to a few wins in a shitty amateur league and think you are a massiah.
You are still a clueless ass.
@Soccer Coach . May I remind you, the same ones you disrespect are the same ones who's ancestors fought to make canada what it is. That Canada is the same one that paved the way to open their doors to people such as yourself to have a place to live, prosper and speak their mind. No doubt you take advantage of all 3. With out those whom you constantly disrespect, its a safe bet you'd be eating what you shite and shitting what you eat. You come off as one who takes advantage of the perks of what it is to live and prosper in Canada. Maybe it is as simple that we are to busy to make soccer a priority in Canada. From paying bills to raising our multi family house holds to working our fcuking asses off so you could have that government grant to be given a chance to live. I ask you politley and respectfully to think about where you are compared to what u were or what could have been. Without thse folks u constantly disrespect that volunteer the countless hours to make Canada what it is for u to follow your passion to coach please show some appreciation for what they do.
It doesnt matter how they do it.
If u dont like it please move the fcuk on
Checkmate EDDY!
It doesnt matter how they do it.
If u dont like it please move the fcuk on
Checkmate EDDY!
Last Point I wanted to make and I hope you dont take this the wrong way or if demographically your in Richmond the wong way.
I have nothing but respect for what u accomplished this year. Im glad u found a home coaching a back door div1 team the in the soccer hot bed of Metro vancouver
See link. For map. http://www.canadalegal.info/img--site/BC/greater-vancouver-map/GVRD-map.html
Seen this story too many times.
Best of luck next year. Dont become the next ACBC
I have nothing but respect for what u accomplished this year. Im glad u found a home coaching a back door div1 team the in the soccer hot bed of Metro vancouver
See link. For map. http://www.canadalegal.info/img--site/BC/greater-vancouver-map/GVRD-map.html
Seen this story too many times.
Best of luck next year. Dont become the next ACBC
@Soccer Coach ...Have you ever wondered why I continuously call you an idiot, and the dumbest smart guy on TTP? It’s not because you are actually stupid, it’s because you seem to have an absolute inability to discern information when it comes to these discussions. It’s as though you have a pre-formed opinion about whatever the discussion point is, and you skip right past any point others (and I’ll use my own points as examples) make, where that position may actually agree with the stance you’ve taken.
I’d like you to TRY and follow the bouncing ball that you created here on TTP. You get your back up when I insult you, which I do, of course, because I’ve been insulted. It’s how real life fights start, one man insults another, and frequently, the other either insults back in return, or simply throws a punch. Human nature. You understand this, surely. So, in reviewing the LONG LIST of insulting remarks you’ve made, it’s baffling to me that you don’t understand why I come at you with written abuse. Frankly, it’d be better if we were on the training pitch, because I could then kick you, and you’d promptly shut the fcuk up…but that’s, unfortunately, not the case.
People like you seem to enjoy being demeaning to others, then hiding behind an outwardly calm demeanor so as to suggest you aren’t at least partially to blame for the backlash you are receiving, simply because you are delivering your message in a calm, calculated, yet condescending manner.
Let’s review:
Soccer Coach, as far as I’m concerned, you are welcome to come back to this party anytime, even if you are that awkward guy in the corner that “doesn’t get it”, but don’t think that if you write something inaccurate, or worse, condescending, you won’t get backlash. Maybe think about what you are trying to send out as your message. Could it be that there are some people around you that actually do “get it”, and are positive contributors to what we know is a bit of a fcuked up system?
Anyways, this has been pretty random, I have a lot to do, but needed to get this off my chest.
I’d like you to TRY and follow the bouncing ball that you created here on TTP. You get your back up when I insult you, which I do, of course, because I’ve been insulted. It’s how real life fights start, one man insults another, and frequently, the other either insults back in return, or simply throws a punch. Human nature. You understand this, surely. So, in reviewing the LONG LIST of insulting remarks you’ve made, it’s baffling to me that you don’t understand why I come at you with written abuse. Frankly, it’d be better if we were on the training pitch, because I could then kick you, and you’d promptly shut the fcuk up…but that’s, unfortunately, not the case.
People like you seem to enjoy being demeaning to others, then hiding behind an outwardly calm demeanor so as to suggest you aren’t at least partially to blame for the backlash you are receiving, simply because you are delivering your message in a calm, calculated, yet condescending manner.
Let’s review:
- Way back where we first “met” in this thread, on a Web forum and in a thread created by Canadian Soccer players, you decide that it would be a good idea to demean not just Canadian soccer, but players from top-to-bottom and coaches alike in a wide painting brush that essentially paints us as back-country bumpkins that have never been exposed to the game, and who are intellectually inferior to you in particular in every way. This becomes especially infuriating when it becomes evident that what you are writing is essentially the same message many of us have been writing for year, but you fail to acknowledge this EVEN when many actually agree with much of what you are writing.
- Earlier in the thread you point to the lack of a true Canadian Professional league as being a major stumbling block in professional development. This is an issue many players here on TTP in the know have been banging on about for YEARS, certainly as long as I’ve been a member. Yet, when we point that out, you revert to suggest (I’m paraphrasing, now, and will continue to do so, because I am quite busy, and don’t have the time to go back and pull your exact quotes…so feel free to correct me in I’m wrong), that we are naïve, wrong, and as coaches we are actually hurting our system more than helping it.
- Earlier in the thread you point to a lack of technical development, and too much “over coaching”, and even reverting to kick & run tactics. This again is an issue many players here on TTP in the know have been banging on about for YEARS. One of the biggest issues we have in Canada is a lack of coaches, from the highest end, down to house. We simply don’t have enough! We have too many well earning dads that register their kids, and due to a lack of knowledgeable coaches and volunteers, step up, and try and do a job they simply have no idea how to do. I never played hockey. I watched a lot on TV and am a huge fan, but never played. It’d be like me trying to teach kids how to skate, shoot, and think tactically. I’d be a fish out of water. So, when we have situations like this- well-meaning but supremely underqualified dad coaching at the grassroots level- we are, systematically shooting ourselves in the foot from the beginning. We give these guys manuals, and coaching clinics, then “qualify” them, but they still do not have an innate understanding of the game. We know this is a huge problem. Little secret: after coaching my son from 5 till 12, I swore I’d never coach my daughter. The relationship between my son and I was strained as father / son with me coaching him. He was too wound up and so intent on pleasing me it hurt his development, while I watched all the other boys around him take leaps and bounds, move on to higher levels, etc. Eventually things worked out, and he chose to pursue hockey and bike racing instead, but I did promise myself I wasn’t going to make the same mistake w/ my daughter. That lasted one year, when I watched the guys who were coaching my 6 year old what a mess they were making. They clearly had never played, could not handle a ball at their feet if their lives depended on it. They didn’t even wear proper footwear. They meant well, but because of their general disconnection to the sport, they spent most of the time talking, and trying to teach positional play, and not nearly enough time simply playing with the ball at their feet. Almost no free play. My daughter didn’t enjoy it, and told me she wasn’t going to play again unless I coached, and she was right, I needed to get involved. I could not let her play another year with such poor instruction, it wasn’t right. I had the playing experience, I had the knowledge. The first thig we changed was making sure there was a hell of a lot less talk, and way more time with the ball at their feet, and simply playing. You know, when you aren’t instructed? Much of the time was spent in the early years- yes- with every girl having a ball at their feet, teaching technical skills. Every girl would have a ball for 45 minutes. The rest of the practice was typically a scrimmage for another 30-45 minutes. No rules, just play. Yes, there was a reward system early on. Yes, it involved getting a trip to Dairy Queen, where the team would bond, if a girl pulled off a Cryuff or step-over, or nut-megged another player in a match. If they made passes w/ their weak foot. If they scored with their weak foot. And, yes, if I saw they were thinking critically, playing with their head up, and trying to make smart decisions, rather than just kicking the ball up the field. Out of that group of girls, from U7, I have lost 2 to other sports (quit soccer), lost 2 to going to another club because they moved, graduated, by my guess, close to 20 to higher levels, and the rest have stayed. At the grassroots level, that type of retention is considered hugely successful. And guess what? Those original coached? Those well-meaning coaches are not coaching at a high level, because their daughters happened to be very good athletes, and the club would promote the girls, then have no truly qualified coach for them (not the club’s fault, it’s a systematic issue we have here, not enough guys giving back), so the same guys moved up the coaching ranks. On more than one occasion, I have been told the club would like my daughter to move up a level, and I knew the only reason why was because they wanted me coaching at a higher level. Finally, I had a very honest discussion with the club, and said I knew my daughter wasn’t ready for the next level up, so we wouldn’t be moving up until she was. Now, much of this, in bit and pieces, I’ve shared and expressed in this thread. Yet, you zero I on the fact I rewarded my girls with trip to Dairy Queen once upon a time, and insinuated that I was doing it all wrong, and the right way to coach was to introduce free play, and to “try it sometime” (seriously, WTF? Did you read anything I wrote?), and they should be making those moves because they love the game, not because they are chasing ice cream. See, you simply don’t get it. You can’t force players to love the game, that will come naturally. But you can influence their environment when you have them. To have the type of retention I get, you don’t get that through giving them ice cream, you get that through sharing your love of the game, and passing that along. They come back year after year because they have fun playing, and that is all I want- I want them to have fun, and come back next year. If they move up, great. If they don’t move up, but come back to play, also great. Yet, somehow, I’m doing it all wrong in your eyes, and am bad for the game. Even though you’ve never actually seen me coach. Because I have rewarded them with ice cream.
- Several times in this tread you have pointed out Canada’s national ranking, as if we aren’t aware of it. Honestly, do you really think we are so stupid that we don’t know where we are ranked, and why?
- Don’t even get me started on your supreme misunderstanding of our local urban areas, and population / population density growth. It’s obvious you need to get around more. You can lead a horse to water, but can’t force it to drink.
Soccer Coach, as far as I’m concerned, you are welcome to come back to this party anytime, even if you are that awkward guy in the corner that “doesn’t get it”, but don’t think that if you write something inaccurate, or worse, condescending, you won’t get backlash. Maybe think about what you are trying to send out as your message. Could it be that there are some people around you that actually do “get it”, and are positive contributors to what we know is a bit of a fcuked up system?
Anyways, this has been pretty random, I have a lot to do, but needed to get this off my chest.
club_i_champ
Well-Known Member
Canada drew 1-1 with European powerhouse Azerbaijan earlier today...
cascadesoccer
Well-Known Member
Canada probably spent to much time at the carpet museum, #10 attraction there according to trip advisor.
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