Whitecaps Development Model: A Made in BC Oxymoron?

[bergamascho]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Always an interesting read when I come to this site. Time to start participating!

Djones- totally agree with you. Whitecaps cannot engage BCSA in a partnership, act as one of the leaders in youth dev in this Province, occupy the top spot in the Player Dev pyramid and then abandon the groups that they need to be supporting(players and Clubs)! It is correct that we occupy less than 5% of male National team spots over the last several years( our demographic is 14% of all players in Canada, third behind Ontario and Quebec). This is not a positive trend and I dont see it being corrected anytime soon.

The reality is there is no clear plan as the soccer leaders in this Province lurch from one "new and improved" programming intitiative to another( kind of like having 3 coaches now for the first team in its inaugral season).

I look forward to being part of the discussion here in the future. All good stuff.

That's all good and great but what kind of name is Colin Elmes? You couldn't pick a better name than that for your TTP ID?

 

[Colin Elmes]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Thats funny. Thought I would do something original for TTP and actually use my real name.....

 

[Captain Shamrock]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Of the current Canucks with the caps both Teibert and Davies were developed elsewhere...and Rochat only counts as a Canuck as he was born here, although that would be like calling Dany Heatley "German" or Owen Nolan "Northern Irish"

There are systemic problems with the youth development here... it's partly the caps fault but at then end of the day BC Soccer and the CSA are to blame, their lack of skill and or resources has forced their hand to allow the Caps to come in and Shanghai things for themselves...

I don't know what happens to the guys that graduate high performance programs that aren't the locks or surefire guys that head overseas like Lensky, haber, etc... There has to be many of these guys around. What happens to them?

The Whitecaps are a privately owned business. Not a philanthropic club, although they do have a foundation and have initiatives connected to BCSA etc. if the b'crats at the CSA and BCSA made bad deals (for the kids) with VWFC then is it really the Caps fault? if I make a good deal with a labour union and they feel hard done by, do I owe them anything? No...we just renegotiate the next time the CBA is up, conversely if I made a bad deal, as much as I wouldn't like it I have to accept it and move along.

The Vancouver Whitecaps owe the CSA and BC Soccer sweet fcuk all if the CSA and BCSA made bad decisions giving too much rope to Bobbaduzzi and Co that could affect their programs and player development model etc.

Owen Nolan is Irish.

 

[5bigtoes]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Thats funny. Thought I would do something original for TTP and actually use my real name.....

well done colin! welcome to the start of an addiction ;0

 

[Regs]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

It's all gone pear-shaped now, hasn't it Elmo?

 

[Colin Elmes]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Regs, Do I still have my Elmo user id from 10 years ago?

I prefer bananas thank you.

Looking forward to my first exchange? with Mr Base!

 

[Dude]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

I thought Owen Nolan was Northern Irish, too. Humm. I'm sure JBN will provide irrefutable evidence.

As for TTP names, I thought I was the only one that used my real name. Welcome to the club, Colin. As addictive as cocaine.

I really like reading the perspectives of guys who have worked closely inside the club, or played there. Their opinions carry weight, you can’t deny it. Not only the old NASL days, but when the 86ers played in the CSL, we were still producing some pretty damn good domestic talent. That 86er squad was a solid, solid team for many years, and even though we never qualified for the WC again, I remember getting damn close. Was it 1993 (edit- see link) when we just fell slightly short to Mexico in a qualifying game here featuring several BC boys (I remember Catliff up front presenting a fairly significant problem for the Mexicans, they called him “the tree trunk”), but we got a back-door opportunity going through the Oceanic conference, only to lose to Australia in PKs after being tied on aggregate at the final whistle? Weren’t we up 1-0 going into the 2nd? I remember watching that game from the lounge chairs at Mardi Gras in New West. I was gutted. Back then, the US weren’t quite as strong as now, and it could be argued that if the tourney were held anywhere else in the world, and the US had not gotten it’s free pass to the dance, it would have been Mexico and Canada going through.

Point being, back then, Canada at least were considered legitimate COCACAF threats to qualify. Every other CONCACAF nation besides Mexico and the US was behind us on the pecking order. We were expected to win, for the most part. Look at some of those results…Canada was beating El Salvador & Honduras handedly at home, and taking points on the road. How many of us would be over the moon w/ those results today? One can not argue that Canada has fallen behind pace on development, and there is a direct correlation there to the lack of development of the BC players. As BC goes, so goes the talent level across all of Canada. The evidence is overwhelming.

Linky: 1994 FIFA World Cup qualification (CONCACAF) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Colin Elmes]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Very good memory Dude.

You can throw Panama into that wall of teams we now must overcome.

I even think there is going to be some nail biting in the games starting this September.

Where is the tree trunk we you need him.....

 

[Dude]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Not bad; I did have the benefit of editing a little after catching up on the Wik. But I was pretty close on my original version, I swear.

If the Caps (and TFC, and Impact) do commit to developing domestic tallent, I argue that we could be back in that contender position 10 years from now. That said, we badly need to get some traction.

 

[Colin Elmes]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

I laughed the other week when WFC press released the 5? players THEY had placed in the National program. Daniel S was the only BC addressed player and the article later revealed he grew up in New York with a dual passport!!!

The argument recently has been that our local players are just not good enough for WFC but now with U14 residency( all BC based players) now under their guidance there will be no excuse. Lets see where these players are at in 2-3 years. In theory, with superior player dev at WFC, we should see our numbers in Nat Youth programs climb significantly.....

 

[akslop]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Before wasting time and money on these kids is there anyway to ensure they play for Canada? Our problem isn't just about development its more on how to keep them from jumping ship and playing for their great grandfathers homeland after we pour our money, time and resources on them...

As for the whitecaps developing these kids and the youth programs they have in place, they the caps would be ignorant to think that if a kid is anywhere near the potential of one day playing pro his first choice will not be to pursue that here.. The dream still is and always will be overseas.

This thread has lost its plot and needs to be split

 

[Jigsaw]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Good post Dude.
I was Assistant Coach with that team in 1994. If the World Cup Format had been,as it is now with 32 teams, we would have qualified and gathered about $20 Million. That money could have been massive in developing more players, with more games and Tournaments to play in.
I remember the USA were not as good as Canada in those days, but they used the money from the World Cup that they hosted, $20 Million, as well as $200 Million from Nike to develop the game. They played over 30 Internationals a year for about 5 years on the trot, it is no co-incidence that they improved.
They also used the money to fund the MLS and not allow teams to fold, as they owned the teams and subsidized them.
Just before the CSL folded, we asked the CSA to give $1 for every kid playing in Canada to help to keep the league afloat and were turned down. Absolutely no vision. If they had done the same as the USA and kept the league, it gives the best players a place to grow and develop into better players, who can then go on and play at a higher level. Pesch, Bunbury, Corazzin,Samuel, etc.
If it had not been for the 86ers,Hamilton Steelers,etc. developing the talent, that I was part of, the World Cup Team at that time would not have gone past the first round.
For people to say, that it is not the Whitecaps place to develop players for Canada is silly and shows that they have no idea of where the game is in Canada.
If that is the case, then why are we supporting an "American Team" her in Vancouver?
Thats what it is, like it or not.
I am sure all of you so called "Soccer Supporters" would like to see Canada in a World Cup again, but you have no idea how it works and to say it is not the Whitecaps responsibility shows your lack of knowledge of the Canadian game.

Welcome back Elmo, at last someone on here that knows the game and has some common sense.

I thought Owen Nolan was Northern Irish, too. Humm. I'm sure JBN will provide irrefutable evidence.

As for TTP names, I thought I was the only one that used my real name. Welcome to the club, Colin. As addictive as cocaine.

I really like reading the perspectives of guys who have worked closely inside the club, or played there. Their opinions carry weight, you can’t deny it. Not only the old NASL days, but when the 86ers played in the CSL, we were still producing some pretty damn good domestic talent. That 86er squad was a solid, solid team for many years, and even though we never qualified for the WC again, I remember getting damn close. Was it 1993 (edit- see link) when we just fell slightly short to Mexico in a qualifying game here featuring several BC boys (I remember Catliff up front presenting a fairly significant problem for the Mexicans, they called him “the tree trunk”), but we got a back-door opportunity going through the Oceanic conference, only to lose to Australia in PKs after being tied on aggregate at the final whistle? Weren’t we up 1-0 going into the 2nd? I remember watching that game from the lounge chairs at Mardi Gras in New West. I was gutted. Back then, the US weren’t quite as strong as now, and it could be argued that if the tourney were held anywhere else in the world, and the US had not gotten it’s free pass to the dance, it would have been Mexico and Canada going through.

Point being, back then, Canada at least were considered legitimate COCACAF threats to qualify. Every other CONCACAF nation besides Mexico and the US was behind us on the pecking order. We were expected to win, for the most part. Look at some of those results…Canada was beating El Salvador & Honduras handedly at home, and taking points on the road. How many of us would be over the moon w/ those results today? One can not argue that Canada has fallen behind pace on development, and there is a direct correlation there to the lack of development of the BC players. As BC goes, so goes the talent level across all of Canada. The evidence is overwhelming.

Linky: 1994 FIFA World Cup qualification (CONCACAF) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Colin Elmes]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

akslop:

The thread: I guess it depends on what part of the Whitecaps roster we are speaking of. But agree, it has skidded away from the first team.

Over seas- more and more of a pipe dream for Canadians- particularly with all the improvements in players from lesser soccer nations becoming more attractive as satellite dev destinations for big Clubs.

I liken it to someone from the UK coming over to try out for the Canucks. No matter how good that player may be the perception and degree of respect someone like that would get would kill the dream before it started.

MLS- if we can get this silly US player is domestic in Canada and Canadian player is international in US business sorted out this league WILL be a future Canadian players choice. The strange part is the Whitecaps actually lobbied for the lower Cdn content all the while being embedded in the BCSA player dev model. Go figure

 

[Colin Elmes]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Jigsaw,

Thanks for the feedback(and thanks for coaching me back in the day)

A satellite American player dev destination we are. Go Caps!

 

[djones]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

I laughed the other week when WFC press released the 5? players THEY had placed in the National program. Daniel S was the only BC addressed player and the article later revealed he grew up in New York with a dual passport!!!

The argument recently has been that our local players are just not good enough for WFC but now with U14 residency( all BC based players) now under their guidance there will be no excuse. Lets see where these players are at in 2-3 years. In theory, with superior player dev at WFC, we should see our numbers in Nat Youth programs climb significantly.....

Elmo,

Just to fill in some gaps...

Daniel S was born in New York (parents escaped communism in Romania and landed in NY just in time to pop out Daniel) but they moved to Canada quickly and on to Coquitlam by the time Daniel was about 3. He played all his youth with CMF starting with our Initiation Academy. Developmental rights (if there was a thing) should go to the club and to Roman Tulis where he spent most of his years.

Gotta love those academies!!!

 

[RL RCD]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

...after we pour our money, time and resources on them...

And how exactly we pour our money, time and resources on soccer players in BC (or in Canada)!?

 

[Colin Elmes]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Thanks Jonesy,

I stand corrected.

My point defaults to him being the only BC player in the group. Still not a number for us to be proud of( Academy or Club)

 

[akslop]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

And how exactly we pour our money, time and resources on soccer players in BC (or in Canada)!?

is that a question? if so can u word it so i can understand what u are asking?

!?

 

[RL RCD]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

is that a question? if so can u word it so i can understand what u are asking?

!?

The point is that we (as a province or country) do NOT pour any serious money into soccer and that is why we have this situation where Canada is 112th on the FIFA list.

 

[utah]

I dont care really who's in charge. I feel that we actually do produce some real talent here at the youth level. It just boggles me though how these players in BC constantly are over looked by the powers that be. In BC we still have coaches around that think it is all about them.

Obviously all of the changes you guys have brought forward need to be implemented, but we really have to look at improving player selection. Especially at a younger age.

In regards to the u14 Residency team, this could work if you keep with the majority of those selected and actually develop them like the big clubs in the world. Too many times i've seen these types of programs bring in different players by the bunch every year. That's opportunity, not development. Development takes years, not months.