Whitecaps Development Model: A Made in BC Oxymoron?

[johnnybluenose]

Jigsaw, wtf does the Whitecaps or their residency have to do with developing Canadians? Who the fcuk cares what country their development players are!? The Caps are a club and not a National Development program.

Who and How they develop should only matter to the Whitecaps and not to the CMNT.

I'd agree that I prefer them to develop players from right here in their backyard- but I really don't care about anything other than getting my moneys worth from Season Tix etc and seeing wins. If they have to dress a bunch of Fijians or Peruvians or Kazakhs to get wins I don't care.

~With all due respect....

 

[djones]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Jigsaw, wtf does the Whitecaps or their residency have to do with developing Canadians? Who the fcuk cares what country their development players are!? The Caps are a club and not a National Development program.

Who and How they develop should only matter to the Whitecaps and not to the CMNT.

I'd agree that I prefer them to develop players from right here in their backyard- but I really don't care about anything other than getting my moneys worth from Season Tix etc and seeing wins. If they have to dress a bunch of Fijians or Peruvians or Kazakhs to get wins I don't care.

~With all due respect....

Since they've gotten into bed with BC Soccer and were the catalyst for displacing teams/players and putting forward a challenging plan to change the landscape of youth soccer in the province (and then stepping out of the implementation of their 'grand plan') that has upset many a people and have depleted club programs in the lower mainland - I DO CARE who the !@#$ they're developing in their residency program.

I don't care so much as to who's in there first team or their reserves, for that matter (I'm not a supporter until more BC players are in the first team), but below, I do care! My club has sent close to 20 players into their old and new 'residency' program in good faith that they would be taken care of with our support. Some have left saying that that wasn't the case. Why should we, or other clubs, support their 'programs' if they are just gonna bring in other players from other areas who aren't better (and they aren't - the boy that they just brought in from outside BC isn't better than players in the lower mainland and won't be etc...) but come with a better resume.

Do not give TFC or WFC a free ride in this argument. They've made statements after statement that development of players in this country should be up to the 'professional' clubs to get what they wanted which was access to players. Now that their not pushing Canadian players like they should or implied, we should look the other way because they now need to win? That's not development if you're bringing in players others have developed.

If that's the case, remove those words of being the 'best developmental program in North America' from their website and any article and or interview where they brag about it.

 

[Jigsaw]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

I care, that's who!I was at the Whitecaps for over 30 years developing players, Canadians at that, even BC players FFS.
We won North American Championships with Local talent and had players on the MNT from BC. They only got to be on the MNT because of the development at the club.
The only reason we qualified in 1986 was because we had Canadians playing in the NASL and playing at the best level available to them. Do you think President Bobby Lenarduzzi or Paul Dolan would have played in the World Cup, if they hadn't been in the NASL?In the time between 1978 and to the end of the 1990's we had an average of 60% of the MNT from BC. I think the average now is 5%.The propaganda that this club is dishing out about how well their Residency Program is working after investing Millions of Dollars into it, is laughable.They have yet to develop a player, there are no BC player's on the Roster, so who are they developing?
Smoke and mirrors.
You are probably one of the first to complain that the MNT are in no contention to qualify for a World Cup.
If we can't develop player's in the Canadian Clubs, then how can we?
Why are we looking at all of these young players in Central America, when we have as good as, or better player's here under their noses?
They are trying to imitate the top clubs in the world by having a Foreign Team built up from every where. That's the image they want.
But, ask them is it working? I don't see any development.
What a silly selfish comment,"I don't care".
Then follow another team that wins if thats what you want to see.
Even with all of the Foreign input, it's not working.
The Club have lost the plot.

Jigsaw, wtf does the Whitecaps or their residency have to do with developing Canadians? Who the fcuk cares what country their development players are!? The Caps are a club and not a National Development program.

Who and How they develop should only matter to the Whitecaps and not to the CMNT.

I'd agree that I prefer them to develop players from right here in their backyard- but I really don't care about anything other than getting my moneys worth from Season Tix etc and seeing wins. If they have to dress a bunch of Fijians or Peruvians or Kazakhs to get wins I don't care.

~With all due respect....

 

[Dude]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

I care too, and what they said.

 

[johnnybluenose]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Backpeddle time...

I don't think you got what I said... or it's more likely I did a poor job of translating my thoughts into text on this forum.

I don care WHERE the players come from, but in General terms, the paying customers shouldn't or don't care because they're paying money to see winning football, and if the players are mostly Canadian and the Caps can put out a winning product: So Be It. If they have to put out only a small amount of Canucks to fill quota and have the rest from Brasil, Gambia, Zimbabwe, etc So Be It.

The Residency should be looking for players worldwide, but they'd be foolish to not scout the heaviest here under their own nose. If the talent pool is poor in reality, they will be forced to look elsewhere, which means they have to spend more money as it's far more costly to evaluate and such abroad than it is here locally... but if the local pool isn't deep enough in someone's incorrect estimation, then that someone needs to be replaced.

What I meant to say was that the CSA is the main running factor in the CMNT, and the Whitecaps main priority should be putting a quality first team side out there. The development of players for the CMNT is going to be under a LAUNDRY list of other things in the pecking order of priories for Bobbaduzzi, Barber, etc....at least if I'm in charge (which I'm not )

Reform of governance, proper elite level training programs and assistance for clubs etc will go a lot further in my estimation to the improvement, long term, of the CMNT and CWNT, than relying on VWFC, TFC, and L'Impact.

 

[STD]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Well said Dude I agree with everything you said except a few points.

On the first team I want to see the best players out there regardless where they are from. The fact is we do not appear to have enough quality players that are ready for the MLS. I don't think you need to look further than Dunfied. I know they are not winning right now with the players they have but I'm afraid it will be a lot worse if we were using local players. I would like to see them develope players that are local and give them a chance on the first team when they are seen as the best choice available not because they are local. Just because we have a MLS team (first year by te way) doesn't mean we have MLS quality players. 5 or 10 years down the road I would like to see that change.

 

[Jigsaw]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

If we didn't develop player's in the past, you would not have seen the likes of:
Mobilio
Catliff
Lowther
Easton
Belfiore
Samuel
Watson
Corazzin
Mitchell
Norman
MacDonald
Dasovic
Lowery
Muirhed
McKinty
Burns (Captain)
Gregor Young

I could go on and on, but my finger is killing me.

 

[STD]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Since Captain and Djones both played for the Whitecaps in the past and post here regularly I'll ask. Would you like to make the first team because you are a local boy or because you are one of te best available?

 

[Jigsaw]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

How about being both?

 

[italian_stallion21]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

How about being both?

But is there both? Wasn't Harmse head an shoulders above everyone here at an amateur level, and couldn't get a sniff with the Caps? I keep reading about all this local talent that we're not utilizing, but I find it hard to believe they would rather spend a ton of cash to scout elsewhere if we have such greatness in our own backyard.

 

[akslop]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

So the whitecaps signed Djones and Captain Shammy?

 

[STD]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

So are you saying the best local player available or the best player available who happens to be local?

Everybody wants to cheer the local kids on wether it is hockey, soccer, ballet whatever but I do not want to watch Dunfied passing the ball out of bounds, to the apposing team or if he gets it to our guy it is beind him or at his knee. He btw starts for our national team in the centre of the park. He works hard and would be good at the level the whitecaps played last year but he is not a starter on a mls team. Maybe he can teach our young kids how to play.

 

[djones]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Why is it that we have no local talent ready to step in to the Whitecaps as we speak? Besides the failures of the PTP/NTC programs aside...

The answer is that the USL Whitecaps took a policy of ridding themselves of using or developing or even looking seriously for local talent and it's left a void for the Whitecaps of the present. Before the exile of the Valente's, Clarke's, and Kindel's, the Whitecaps went with the policy of bringing in subpar players from the states like Testo etc..., pay them good money and stopped developing local talent. Now there's a void. Add the fact that they jumped to a 'higher' level and the steps are farther.

Developing talent is more difficult that people think. It's easy to spot a Messi or a Ronaldo in an 'elite' program, draft them and call it development. It's finding the players that are not the ones that stand out (initially) because they aren't physically dominate or they don't run faster than everyone else (contrary to the PTP/NTC standard policy).

True developmental successes are the ones like Scholes who at 16 was asthmatic, slow, small and severely struggling but United staff had the foresight to see his assets and figured they could look past his deficiencies (tackling had to be one of them) and knew they could develop him into a first team player.

There are lots of stories of players passed over (Keegan, Gascoigne, etc...) by big clubs that went somewhere else to develop into world class players. Canada's is devoid of these players and that's a reason why we have no depth.

Is the Residency looking at these types of players? I'm not sure. The players they have all came from 'elite' programs, especially the BC boys (all of them are early born/early maturers from the PTP/NTC programs) except Van Blerk who was a North Shore/Mountain FC Y League player and is also the only late-born BC player (well done Jason! You're beating the odds.)

The main reason why I struggled to get through to the first team of the 86'ers back in the day when they won everything was because of the outstanding development that was going on in BC by coaches like Jigsaw at al. All those players mentioned were developed before I arrived at the club and there was literally no more room (let's be honest, there is some outstanding names on this list!). When the CSL folded my chances of going anywhere went from 8 to 0. There was no where else to go. If there was, my playing career could have been drastically different. There wasn't a reserve team back then. I got frustrated and quit.

So are you saying the best local player available or the best player available who happens to be local?

They should have some in the reserves. It's hard because they have to be paid but they should be pulling in local players for a look-see. What's there policy for trials? What about coaching development opportunities?

 

[RL RCD]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Since they've gotten into bed with BC Soccer and were the catalyst for displacing teams/players and putting forward a challenging plan to change the landscape of youth soccer in the province (and then stepping out of the implementation of their 'grand plan') that has upset many a people and have depleted club programs in the lower mainland - I DO CARE who the !@#$ they're developing in their residency program.

You are absolutely right! I have been saying for years that Whitecaps have been destroying youth soccer program in this province. Everything, for the last 7,8 years, has been geared toward Whitecaps. If that is the case then Whitecaps MUST further develop BC players and give them a chance. But, that is obviously not happening. Why? Simply because "Big Bob" thinks Whitecaps should grab a talented player and with some luck eventually sell him (his rights) to a big club in Europe for a lot of money.

It is rather pathetic when Whitecaps start claiming how they developed such and such player while in fact they have done nothing! Those talented players learned soccer somewhere else and Whitecaps are just abusing their position and trying to make some quick money.

 

[STD]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

I admit I do not follow youth soccer or developement at all, I am sure that will change when my son starts playing because at 6 mounths he has star written all over him. I do not know the clubs involvement with the whole proccess so that is why I can not make a comment on it. I keep my comments in regards to the first team where the best player available should be playing and I would hope the residency program are giving the local boys a chance.

 

[johnnybluenose]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Of the current Canucks with the caps both Teibert and Davies were developed elsewhere...and Rochat only counts as a Canuck as he was born here, although that would be like calling Dany Heatley "German" or Owen Nolan "Northern Irish"

There are systemic problems with the youth development here... it's partly the caps fault but at then end of the day BC Soccer and the CSA are to blame, their lack of skill and or resources has forced their hand to allow the Caps to come in and Shanghai things for themselves...

I don't know what happens to the guys that graduate high performance programs that aren't the locks or surefire guys that head overseas like Lensky, haber, etc... There has to be many of these guys around. What happens to them?

The Whitecaps are a privately owned business. Not a philanthropic club, although they do have a foundation and have initiatives connected to BCSA etc. if the b'crats at the CSA and BCSA made bad deals (for the kids) with VWFC then is it really the Caps fault? if I make a good deal with a labour union and they feel hard done by, do I owe them anything? No...we just renegotiate the next time the CBA is up, conversely if I made a bad deal, as much as I wouldn't like it I have to accept it and move along.

The Vancouver Whitecaps owe the CSA and BC Soccer sweet fcuk all if the CSA and BCSA made bad decisions giving too much rope to Bobbaduzzi and Co that could affect their programs and player development model etc.

 

[djones]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

I should say that The Residency have some very, very good BC players in the program but I'm not sure they've turned over every stone.

Hopefully they give the BC boys a real serious opportunity and adopt the philosophy that they are pushing youth.

Maybe then I'll become a 'true' supporter.

 

[STD]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

I think we all want the same thing we just look at it differently.
I think the biggest difference the Whitecaps, TFC, and the Impact can make for Canadian soccer is to give kids a local professional team they want to play for. I remember arguing with a friend when I was in elementary school. I said there was more money to be made in soccer and he said there was more money to be made in hockey. Turns out we were both right. There is more money Internationally to be made in soccer but for a Canadian there was more money to be made in hockey. Maybe kids in elementary school are going to start to think soccer is worth pursuing as a legitimate career because they saw Hassli score a goal in front of 20 plus thousand people.

 

[johnnybluenose]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

That has nothing to do with it.

More people participate in Soccer than Hockey in this country... but statistics are for losers...

Soccer, at the younger ages, is a babysitting service that costs less than Hockey does, but in reality more kids in Canada will aspire to play in the NHL than in the World Cup, in the EPL, Champions League, and MLS combined... I've seen man of my nieces games where countless parents drop off their kids and return in an hour with a fresh newspaper and a starbucks...they took a 1 hour break from parenthood.

To play Hockey as an adult costs you $800 per season in reg fees alone unless your team in sponsored or subsidized somehow. Soccer ranges but I've never seen any team charge their guys more than $250 per year. In Soccer you need a pair of boots and shin pads. If I snap one of my hockey sticks I'm out my entire Soccer fees for the year at +$200.

 

[Colin Elmes]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Always an interesting read when I come to this site. Time to start participating!

Djones- totally agree with you. Whitecaps cannot engage BCSA in a partnership, act as one of the leaders in youth dev in this Province, occupy the top spot in the Player Dev pyramid and then abandon the groups that they need to be supporting(players and Clubs)! It is correct that we occupy less than 5% of male National team spots over the last several years( our demographic is 14% of all players in Canada, third behind Ontario and Quebec). This is not a positive trend and I dont see it being corrected anytime soon.

The reality is there is no clear plan as the soccer leaders in this Province lurch from one "new and improved" programming intitiative to another( kind of like having 3 coaches now for the first team in its inaugral season).

I look forward to being part of the discussion here in the future. All good stuff.