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Whitecaps Development Model: A Made in BC Oxymoron?
- Thread starter johnnybluenose
- Start date
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
- Thread starter
- #42
another tangent (as per Dude's request for irrefutable evidence):
Owen Nolan was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK Feb 12 1972, moved at a very young age with his family to Thorold Ontario.
Owen Nolan was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK Feb 12 1972, moved at a very young age with his family to Thorold Ontario.
TulioMaravilha
Active Member
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
Let's be real, this happens everywhere and the "jumping ship" oftentimes comes more out of lack of opportunity with the native country than anything else. Take the example of Deco and Pepe (Portugal) and Marcos Senna (Spain). The 3 of them never had a chance with Brazil's MNT and chose to represent their respective adopted countries. After the fact, we had many Brazilians ready to nail them to the cross (Hargreaves anyone?) especially because the guys occupying their positions in the Selecao were frequently inferior players. If this happens in Brazil why wouldn't it happen here?
I really haven't been here long enough but most cases I've heard of Canadian players choosing to play for other countries arguably fall more on this category than in the "I've always got a fair chance in the PTP teams and MNT but, whatever, it's more sexy to play for a traditional footballing country". If I'm out to lunch on this, please educate me, I'd like to know...
Anyhow, IMHO if the powers that be one day get better in talent identification and selection, your scenario will be a very rare thing, for it's generally waaaaaaaay easier to get a call for Canada than from these other countries.
Let's be real, this happens everywhere and the "jumping ship" oftentimes comes more out of lack of opportunity with the native country than anything else. Take the example of Deco and Pepe (Portugal) and Marcos Senna (Spain). The 3 of them never had a chance with Brazil's MNT and chose to represent their respective adopted countries. After the fact, we had many Brazilians ready to nail them to the cross (Hargreaves anyone?) especially because the guys occupying their positions in the Selecao were frequently inferior players. If this happens in Brazil why wouldn't it happen here?
I really haven't been here long enough but most cases I've heard of Canadian players choosing to play for other countries arguably fall more on this category than in the "I've always got a fair chance in the PTP teams and MNT but, whatever, it's more sexy to play for a traditional footballing country". If I'm out to lunch on this, please educate me, I'd like to know...
Anyhow, IMHO if the powers that be one day get better in talent identification and selection, your scenario will be a very rare thing, for it's generally waaaaaaaay easier to get a call for Canada than from these other countries.
bettermirror
New Member
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
You can't really be comparing Hargreaves (every chance in the world to be a stud for CMNT) and Deco (no chance when younger at representing Brazil but only later deemed good enough)????
But your argument for wanting to represent one country over another holds re: the "sexy" reference.
You can't really be comparing Hargreaves (every chance in the world to be a stud for CMNT) and Deco (no chance when younger at representing Brazil but only later deemed good enough)????
But your argument for wanting to represent one country over another holds re: the "sexy" reference.
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
Sir that is Not a fair comparison ... Those countries u list boil over with talent so its really a wash... you lose one but you know there is one more in waiting to fill that void.. My point is how to we prevent this from happening here.. We cant afford to have good players going overseas.. How do we keep them? Can we lock them in at youth? I dont know how the whole system works ? Can a national team own someones rights?
Sir that is Not a fair comparison ... Those countries u list boil over with talent so its really a wash... you lose one but you know there is one more in waiting to fill that void.. My point is how to we prevent this from happening here.. We cant afford to have good players going overseas.. How do we keep them? Can we lock them in at youth? I dont know how the whole system works ? Can a national team own someones rights?
italian_stallion21
Well-Known Member
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
Good idea.. shoot the kid so he cant play!
Good idea.. shoot the kid so he cant play!
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
just kidding...
But what is the definition of capping? (amatuer vs pro).. what i mean is Are they considered capped if they play at a U15 world cup per say ? or is capping strictly related to the mens team?
just kidding...
But what is the definition of capping? (amatuer vs pro).. what i mean is Are they considered capped if they play at a U15 world cup per say ? or is capping strictly related to the mens team?
italian_stallion21
Well-Known Member
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
I'm too lazy to look, but I think it's U-20, but it very well could be the men's team.
I'm too lazy to look, but I think it's U-20, but it very well could be the men's team.
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
Go lookup:
Asmir Begovic (Poster boy for Canada U-20 team and now tied to Bosnia)
Jonathan De Guzman (can argue he developed in Netherlands as he was at Feyenoord since 12, but was asked repeatedly to play for Canada, and instead attempted and failed to make it with the Dutch team)
Daniel Fernandes (Another Canadian U-20 Keeper who ditched Canada, now with Portugal)
Go lookup:
Asmir Begovic (Poster boy for Canada U-20 team and now tied to Bosnia)
Jonathan De Guzman (can argue he developed in Netherlands as he was at Feyenoord since 12, but was asked repeatedly to play for Canada, and instead attempted and failed to make it with the Dutch team)
Daniel Fernandes (Another Canadian U-20 Keeper who ditched Canada, now with Portugal)
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
They changed this a few years ago.
It is now defined strictly as Senior Men's National team, and only real competitive matches (Regional Competitions like Gold Cup, Copa America, etc or World Cup Qualifiers -- friendlies don't count)
They changed this a few years ago.
It is now defined strictly as Senior Men's National team, and only real competitive matches (Regional Competitions like Gold Cup, Copa America, etc or World Cup Qualifiers -- friendlies don't count)
TulioMaravilha
Active Member
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
LOL, I knew people would jump at the OH reference
So, for both of you, just because we are scarce in decent player material, I can't compare?
Hmm, help me understand, you mean that if we had 100 other guys at OH or higher level standing next in line than you'd be OK with someone like him going abroad? You know what, as see it, things don't change because we'd benefit from a guy's decision one way or another. In the 80's Brazil took a Brazilian-born American to represent it at pole vaulting and I always thought and said it was a crap decision (of the IOC) to allow him to compete for us. On the other hand, I never condemned THE GUY for trying to keep his career afloat when political decisions (1980 boycott) prevented him from doing it at home.
Besides, call me petty, but I remember taking a lot of pleasure once by telling someone to fcuk off, who had previously taken an incompetent crony of his over me for something and later coming back with the tail between his legs when things got ugly. So, I can't really fault anyone who gets passed over because the soccer luminaries think he's not good enough to choose to play elsewhere and later give them the finger when they suddenly realize they screwed up and come knocking.
Now, I can't help but finding it odd when I see guys getting calls to play for England, Portugal, etc. and I hear that they were cut from our teams. I know player selection is subjective but give me a break.... "We can't afford to have good players going overseas"? Simple, learn (or hire people who know) how to spot players who have a fighting chance to make it to the higher levels, give everyone a decent opportunity to make the teams, get the best players involved early and often and they are unlikely to want to play (I'm talking MNT here, obviously, not MLS) for anyone else.
As for the "sexy" reference, mirror, what I mean is, how many examples you know of that being the root cause?
LOL, I knew people would jump at the OH reference
So, for both of you, just because we are scarce in decent player material, I can't compare?
Hmm, help me understand, you mean that if we had 100 other guys at OH or higher level standing next in line than you'd be OK with someone like him going abroad? You know what, as see it, things don't change because we'd benefit from a guy's decision one way or another. In the 80's Brazil took a Brazilian-born American to represent it at pole vaulting and I always thought and said it was a crap decision (of the IOC) to allow him to compete for us. On the other hand, I never condemned THE GUY for trying to keep his career afloat when political decisions (1980 boycott) prevented him from doing it at home.
Besides, call me petty, but I remember taking a lot of pleasure once by telling someone to fcuk off, who had previously taken an incompetent crony of his over me for something and later coming back with the tail between his legs when things got ugly. So, I can't really fault anyone who gets passed over because the soccer luminaries think he's not good enough to choose to play elsewhere and later give them the finger when they suddenly realize they screwed up and come knocking.
Now, I can't help but finding it odd when I see guys getting calls to play for England, Portugal, etc. and I hear that they were cut from our teams. I know player selection is subjective but give me a break.... "We can't afford to have good players going overseas"? Simple, learn (or hire people who know) how to spot players who have a fighting chance to make it to the higher levels, give everyone a decent opportunity to make the teams, get the best players involved early and often and they are unlikely to want to play (I'm talking MNT here, obviously, not MLS) for anyone else.
As for the "sexy" reference, mirror, what I mean is, how many examples you know of that being the root cause?
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
For me, it wouldn't be a full "YES", but it sure would take the sting out of that player choosing to get capped under another nation.
I hate comparing our soccer system to hockey, but I'm going to do it to illustrate my point. In hockey, we have exactly the player development system you describe. The top of our player development system is overflowing with great players, way too many to fill the spots in the NHL. These players then play down a level or two domestically, or they go overseas. Many spend their whole career overseas, getting paid well, and living a great lifestyle. They wouldn't cut it here, so they play there. Many end up getting grandfathered into their adopted homeland, though one loophole or another, and playing for that country in international games against Canada. I have a cousin who spent his whole career in Italy & Germany, and played in three Olympics for Italy. All his development came in Canada.
In Canada, nobody remembers or cares about these players switching their nationalities for the game because they couldn't cut it here. Bret Hull is about the only high profile player I can think of that did switch, maybe Adam Deadmarsh, too (he wouldn't have made Canada's team, though).
Point being, when we are so starved for great, top end talent, it stings a lot when these guys declare for other nations. Call me a little too proud and patriotic, but I think these athletes owe Canada their loyalties. Sure, maybe they developed despite Canada's ineptitude at player development, but they had the opportunity to live here under a favorable political & economic system whereby almost every kid at a young age gets an opportunity to play, and to play a lot. Sure, soccer Canada may suck, but Canada sure doesn’t. That’s where I get pissed, because these asshats are pissing on Canada, not just the CSA when they turn coat. They could truly make a difference here, yet chose to help a nation that maybe doesn't need it as much, footballing wise.
Anyhow...
LOL, I knew people would jump at the OH reference
So, for both of you, just because we are scarce in decent player material, I can't compare?
Hmm, help me understand, you mean that if we had 100 other guys at OH or higher level standing next in line than you'd be OK with someone like him going abroad?
For me, it wouldn't be a full "YES", but it sure would take the sting out of that player choosing to get capped under another nation.
I hate comparing our soccer system to hockey, but I'm going to do it to illustrate my point. In hockey, we have exactly the player development system you describe. The top of our player development system is overflowing with great players, way too many to fill the spots in the NHL. These players then play down a level or two domestically, or they go overseas. Many spend their whole career overseas, getting paid well, and living a great lifestyle. They wouldn't cut it here, so they play there. Many end up getting grandfathered into their adopted homeland, though one loophole or another, and playing for that country in international games against Canada. I have a cousin who spent his whole career in Italy & Germany, and played in three Olympics for Italy. All his development came in Canada.
In Canada, nobody remembers or cares about these players switching their nationalities for the game because they couldn't cut it here. Bret Hull is about the only high profile player I can think of that did switch, maybe Adam Deadmarsh, too (he wouldn't have made Canada's team, though).
Point being, when we are so starved for great, top end talent, it stings a lot when these guys declare for other nations. Call me a little too proud and patriotic, but I think these athletes owe Canada their loyalties. Sure, maybe they developed despite Canada's ineptitude at player development, but they had the opportunity to live here under a favorable political & economic system whereby almost every kid at a young age gets an opportunity to play, and to play a lot. Sure, soccer Canada may suck, but Canada sure doesn’t. That’s where I get pissed, because these asshats are pissing on Canada, not just the CSA when they turn coat. They could truly make a difference here, yet chose to help a nation that maybe doesn't need it as much, footballing wise.
Anyhow...
TulioMaravilha
Active Member
Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves
So JDG don't really count, eh, as he moved abroad at 12 and never wanted to play for Canada to begin with.
As for the others, maybe you're right, some people will take advantage of any loopholes they see (don't know enough to tell if that's the case). On the other hand, I kind of remember reading somewhere about DF being cut from BC PTP or something like that before he moved abroad....
Late Edit Found the reference I had seen : "Canadian U20 coach thought he had an attitude and basically denied him being capped for Canada. Fernandes took his other option, and was brought into Portugal's youth system, eventually capped when he was U23 or so". Again, I don't really know the facts but it seems to fall in what I was talking about.
So JDG don't really count, eh, as he moved abroad at 12 and never wanted to play for Canada to begin with.
As for the others, maybe you're right, some people will take advantage of any loopholes they see (don't know enough to tell if that's the case). On the other hand, I kind of remember reading somewhere about DF being cut from BC PTP or something like that before he moved abroad....
Late Edit Found the reference I had seen : "Canadian U20 coach thought he had an attitude and basically denied him being capped for Canada. Fernandes took his other option, and was brought into Portugal's youth system, eventually capped when he was U23 or so". Again, I don't really know the facts but it seems to fall in what I was talking about.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
- Thread starter
- #55
If I make the blanket statement: A contributing factor to the ineptitude in the development model of Soccer in Canada is that coaches at every level are more interested in winning games than they are at developing players.
am I correct or am I missing the point or am I being ignorant?
The reason I make this statement is that this is what happened in Hockey in Canada. When I was midteens I was playing AAA Hockey and coaching younger levels of AAA Rep hockey, and then Canada lost to the Yanks in the World Cup, and we faired poorly in the Olympics in Nagano... all of a sudden Coaches got memos from Hockey Canada, and BC Hockey and Pacific Coast Hockey stating that coaches are directed to take on the best players/athletes and that team chemistry and individual player attitudes etc were meaningless and that we are in the business of developing hockey players and not winning teams.
That's exactly what i see when it comes to Soccer.
I see Hargreaves being cut as a youngster trying out for Canada's U-20 team
I see DeGuzman being fought over from the OSA and CSA and the Ontario board actually asking the Dutch club for a transfer fee or compensation
I see others (Fernandes) being cut because of a bad attitude that might ripple some waters in the lockerroom... and then we piss off the best keeper Canada has and he's now the backup in Portugal...
am I correct or am I missing the point or am I being ignorant?
The reason I make this statement is that this is what happened in Hockey in Canada. When I was midteens I was playing AAA Hockey and coaching younger levels of AAA Rep hockey, and then Canada lost to the Yanks in the World Cup, and we faired poorly in the Olympics in Nagano... all of a sudden Coaches got memos from Hockey Canada, and BC Hockey and Pacific Coast Hockey stating that coaches are directed to take on the best players/athletes and that team chemistry and individual player attitudes etc were meaningless and that we are in the business of developing hockey players and not winning teams.
That's exactly what i see when it comes to Soccer.
I see Hargreaves being cut as a youngster trying out for Canada's U-20 team
I see DeGuzman being fought over from the OSA and CSA and the Ontario board actually asking the Dutch club for a transfer fee or compensation
I see others (Fernandes) being cut because of a bad attitude that might ripple some waters in the lockerroom... and then we piss off the best keeper Canada has and he's now the backup in Portugal...
TulioMaravilha
Active Member
Anyhow, back to the subject of the thread:
I'm taking a wait and see approach in terms of the 'Caps and the Residency. I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt for now but I hope to see some progress not only in developing the players they took but in their ability to correct choices down the line. It's all fine and dandy to miss the mark when what you're running is a glorified soccer academy with parents footing the bill (Prospects) but a completely different kind of animal when players get a free ride and you propose to have a real farm system.
Anywhere serious, teams are always scouting their backyard for missed players and dropping the ones that don't/won't progress. And coaches also know that if they perform poorly in preparing players for the next level up they will get the shaft in a hurry. Up to this point, I have observed a sense of entitlement from players and parents who are in the WCFC system and accountability from coaches for their track record in player development is not really a forte of our soccer system...
Besides, there's always the YVR Player Development Model if things stay the same...
I'm taking a wait and see approach in terms of the 'Caps and the Residency. I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt for now but I hope to see some progress not only in developing the players they took but in their ability to correct choices down the line. It's all fine and dandy to miss the mark when what you're running is a glorified soccer academy with parents footing the bill (Prospects) but a completely different kind of animal when players get a free ride and you propose to have a real farm system.
Anywhere serious, teams are always scouting their backyard for missed players and dropping the ones that don't/won't progress. And coaches also know that if they perform poorly in preparing players for the next level up they will get the shaft in a hurry. Up to this point, I have observed a sense of entitlement from players and parents who are in the WCFC system and accountability from coaches for their track record in player development is not really a forte of our soccer system...
Besides, there's always the YVR Player Development Model if things stay the same...
bettermirror
New Member
Tulio - To be clear. Under no circumstances was it OK for Hargreaves to select England.
Whitecaps u14 is great....that's wonderful it is only BC players. However, some are right - how many will stick around for the u16 or u18 programs. How many will make the jump to the PDL/Reserve team. Is one u14 team enough?
Whitecaps u14 is great....that's wonderful it is only BC players. However, some are right - how many will stick around for the u16 or u18 programs. How many will make the jump to the PDL/Reserve team. Is one u14 team enough?
bettermirror
New Member
Fernandes wasn't Canada's best GK. Begovic is/was (btw, has Bosnia been reinstated by FIFA yet? sheesh!). It's fairly well known, as much as I hate to admit it, that Dale Mitchell pretty much pooched the Fernandes situation and DF can't be blamed completely.
JDG on the other hand....yep, in Holland since 12. OK. But his older brother is on the CMNT! For crying out loud. He hasn't made the Dutch team and appears well down the pecking order in MF except now he is being tracked by Villareal and so who knows....he isn't at his prime yet and they might just cap him....regardless, apparently he had to sign off his Canadian citizenship and is now 100% Dutch in that regard. Or so it is said....
JDG on the other hand....yep, in Holland since 12. OK. But his older brother is on the CMNT! For crying out loud. He hasn't made the Dutch team and appears well down the pecking order in MF except now he is being tracked by Villareal and so who knows....he isn't at his prime yet and they might just cap him....regardless, apparently he had to sign off his Canadian citizenship and is now 100% Dutch in that regard. Or so it is said....
italian_stallion21
Well-Known Member
As much I would like him in Canada's MNT, he made the right decision. What would further his footballing career more, Canada or England? Hell, if I was talented enough to have the choice to play for Italy and Canada, I'm picking Italy. The career options become exponential when you're part of a good footballing nations MNT.
The biggest issue in Canada’s soccer is that there is a certain group of people who grabbed some positions at CSA (and/or BCSA), makes good money for doing literally nothing (the FIFA ranking says it all), and can get away for doing nothing! I’d say that this also applies to Whitecaps and it is getting more and more exposed.
How can we expect to have a good national team when the youth selection is not right to start with? Provincial program costs anywhere between $4,000 and $6,000. Y-league (with the trip to Florida) comes to approximately $3,000 to $4,000. How many parents can afford to pay for these programs? How many kids are left aside because their parents simply cannot afford to pay? Let’s not forget that maybe some great talents never had a chance to participate in any of the mentioned programs.
Now, about selection. I have literally witnessed everything when it comes to a soccer selection in this country. At the age when the Provincial program is supposed to start the so-called professional Provincial’s team coaches are looking mostly at the size of the players.
It is easy to notice on the field a stand out player, very easy. Anyone who has two eyes can spot those. But, it takes a real professional to notice the talent that is not standing out at the moment. And this is where it all gets wrong from the start. Once wrong picked player stays in the selection (team) for number of years to come. He was picked for the wrong reason (mostly because of his size), he really cannot develop as a player but his parents are willing to fork the money and that is all that matters!
I have seen some amazing talents in this country at the age of 10, 11, 12. Some (stand outs) even went through those programs I listed above but did not really further develop as soccer players . Why?
The simple answer is the lack of the real professional soccer coaches who would know how to turn the rough diamond into a great looking one! Instead of further developing those talented players, the coaches were satisfied with what they already had, their speed, for example, and that was it! They would put a speedy kid to play a forward, send the long ball to him, and let him run down the field. They never worked on the other aspects of the game with that kid. They simply did not know how to do it; they abused his speed, used the player for his ability to run fast but did not work with the player to further develop anything else that the player was missing!
This country needs free soccer programs for the most talented. Those programs should be run by real soccer professionals. Yes, of course, it is costly, those professional soccer coaches are not cheap but if you want to see soccer succeeding in Canada that is the only way: real professional soccer coaches who run free programs for the most talented.
If the program is free and if there are professionals who are running it, we will see the most talented players trying out for that program, not only kids who can afford to pay. And once you have all the talented ones trying out, everything gets easier after that.
How can we expect to have a good national team when the youth selection is not right to start with? Provincial program costs anywhere between $4,000 and $6,000. Y-league (with the trip to Florida) comes to approximately $3,000 to $4,000. How many parents can afford to pay for these programs? How many kids are left aside because their parents simply cannot afford to pay? Let’s not forget that maybe some great talents never had a chance to participate in any of the mentioned programs.
Now, about selection. I have literally witnessed everything when it comes to a soccer selection in this country. At the age when the Provincial program is supposed to start the so-called professional Provincial’s team coaches are looking mostly at the size of the players.
It is easy to notice on the field a stand out player, very easy. Anyone who has two eyes can spot those. But, it takes a real professional to notice the talent that is not standing out at the moment. And this is where it all gets wrong from the start. Once wrong picked player stays in the selection (team) for number of years to come. He was picked for the wrong reason (mostly because of his size), he really cannot develop as a player but his parents are willing to fork the money and that is all that matters!
I have seen some amazing talents in this country at the age of 10, 11, 12. Some (stand outs) even went through those programs I listed above but did not really further develop as soccer players . Why?
The simple answer is the lack of the real professional soccer coaches who would know how to turn the rough diamond into a great looking one! Instead of further developing those talented players, the coaches were satisfied with what they already had, their speed, for example, and that was it! They would put a speedy kid to play a forward, send the long ball to him, and let him run down the field. They never worked on the other aspects of the game with that kid. They simply did not know how to do it; they abused his speed, used the player for his ability to run fast but did not work with the player to further develop anything else that the player was missing!
This country needs free soccer programs for the most talented. Those programs should be run by real soccer professionals. Yes, of course, it is costly, those professional soccer coaches are not cheap but if you want to see soccer succeeding in Canada that is the only way: real professional soccer coaches who run free programs for the most talented.
If the program is free and if there are professionals who are running it, we will see the most talented players trying out for that program, not only kids who can afford to pay. And once you have all the talented ones trying out, everything gets easier after that.
