Whitecaps Development Model: A Made in BC Oxymoron?

[djones]

Re: Whitecaps Roster and Roster Moves

Sir that is Not a fair comparison ... Those countries u list boil over with talent so its really a wash... you lose one but you know there is one more in waiting to fill that void.. My point is how to we prevent this from happening here.. We cant afford to have good players going overseas.. How do we keep them? Can we lock them in at youth? I dont know how the whole system works ? Can a national team own someones rights?

Shouldn't this be the case with Canada too? One passes on the situation and someone else takes there place?

Going back to my original post, this is why I care that we are developing Canadian players. So that if someone does pass on playing for Canada, someone else will be there to fill in.

Canada is one of the most hypocritical countries in the world.

I hear an arguement that JDG situation is less of a problem because he left or emigrated at 12 years old. Hargreaves left at 16. There's a difference?

Both emigrated to other countries at young ages to develop their profession. One (OH) was passed over by Canada (wrongly) and then asked by other countries. The other one (JDG) wasn't passed over but declined BEFORE others asked. Why is Hargreaves worse? Because he was one of the first?

As much as we want to say OH is Canadian, he was brought up, like I was, in an English home where culture and an English way of life was clearly evident. You have to remember, he is the only one of his family of 5 born in Canada.

Canada has benefitted from this in many, many sports at the expense of other countries. Donavon Bailey immigrated to Canada at 13. Ben Johnson at 15. Is there a difference to JDG or OH? One of them is in the Canada hall of fame and is paraded around Canada as a hero. Not as a trader. We've had Stan Mikita, Peter Stastney, Petr Nedved play for Canada in international hockey.

Anyone remember Marc Bircham? He was an English-born player that became a fan favourite player at QPR that the CSA brought in to play for Canada.

from Wikipedia
Bircham was eligible to play for Canada because one of his grandfathers was born in Winnipeg. He made his debut for Canada in an April 1999 friendly match against Northern Ireland in Belfast. He is the only player to have played for a country without actually visiting it when his first cap – as well as his first and only goal – came.

Just because he didn't play for Manchester United or Liverpool doesn't make the situation different.

If Landon Donavon chose to play for Canada instead of the US (his estranged father was a Canadian hockey player) would we have welcomed him with open arms?

Hypocritically, emphatically and sadly... YES!

 

[djones]

The biggest issue in Canada’s soccer is that there is a certain group of people who grabbed some positions at CSA (and/or BCSA), makes good money for doing literally nothing (the FIFA ranking says it all), and can get away for doing nothing! I’d say that this also applies to Whitecaps and it is getting more and more exposed.

How can we expect to have a good national team when the youth selection is not right to start with? Provincial program costs anywhere between $4,000 and $6,000. Y-league (with the trip to Florida) comes to approximately $3,000 to $4,000. How many parents can afford to pay for these programs? How many kids are left aside because their parents simply cannot afford to pay? Let’s not forget that maybe some great talents never had a chance to participate in any of the mentioned programs.

Now, about selection. I have literally witnessed everything when it comes to a soccer selection in this country. At the age when the Provincial program is supposed to start the so-called professional Provincial’s team coaches are looking mostly at the size of the players.
It is easy to notice on the field a stand out player, very easy. Anyone who has two eyes can spot those. But, it takes a real professional to notice the talent that is not standing out at the moment. And this is where it all gets wrong from the start. Once wrong picked player stays in the selection (team) for number of years to come. He was picked for the wrong reason (mostly because of his size), he really cannot develop as a player but his parents are willing to fork the money and that is all that matters!

I have seen some amazing talents in this country at the age of 10, 11, 12. Some (stand outs) even went through those programs I listed above but did not really further develop as soccer players . Why?
The simple answer is the lack of the real professional soccer coaches who would know how to turn the rough diamond into a great looking one! Instead of further developing those talented players, the coaches were satisfied with what they already had, their speed, for example, and that was it! They would put a speedy kid to play a forward, send the long ball to him, and let him run down the field. They never worked on the other aspects of the game with that kid. They simply did not know how to do it; they abused his speed, used the player for his ability to run fast but did not work with the player to further develop anything else that the player was missing!

This country needs free soccer programs for the most talented. Those programs should be run by real soccer professionals. Yes, of course, it is costly, those professional soccer coaches are not cheap but if you want to see soccer succeeding in Canada that is the only way: real professional soccer coaches who run free programs for the most talented.

If the program is free and if there are professionals who are running it, we will see the most talented players trying out for that program, not only kids who can afford to pay. And once you have all the talented ones trying out, everything gets easier after that.

I agree with some of your points but I'll take issue with a few you've made.

Y-league (with the trip to Florida) comes to approximately $3,000 to $4,000. How many parents can afford it? How many kids are left aside because their parents simply cannot afford to pay? Let’s not forget that maybe some great talents never had a chance to participate in any of the mentioned programs.

As I can't argue for the BCSA but I have yet to see a Y-League club turn down a player because they can't afford it. In fact, I've personally witnessed clubs and programs bend-over backwards and explore every option so disadvantaged players can play in the league AND go to Florida for my team and others. Awesome programs stepped up for these players and it happens more than you think.

This country needs free soccer programs for the most talented.

You are absolutely right! I have been saying for years that Whitecaps have been destroying youth soccer program in this province.

Isn't that what the Whitecaps are doing now with their residency program?

 

[Colin Elmes]

OH discussion with Bayern Munich( because of course I was in the room)

"Son, you are now playing for Bayern Munich, one of the most famous Clubs in the world. If England U20 or Germany U20 come in for you, you will not play. Bayern Munich players only play in full national squads. If England or Germany World Cup teams come in for you, you will go with our blessing. If Canada comes in for you in any environment you will not return calls. You play for Bayern Munich."

End of story

 

[Colin Elmes]

I agree with some of your points but I'll take issue with a few you've made.



As I can't argue for the BCSA but I have yet to see a Y-League club turn down a player because they can't afford it. In fact, I've personally witnessed clubs and programs bend-over backwards and explore every option so disadvantaged players can play in the league AND go to Florida for my team and others. Awesome programs stepped up for these players and it happens more than you think.
Certain soccer academy's also have a scholarship program that pay all or in part fees......



Isn't that what the Whitecaps are doing now with their residency program?

 

[djones]

Wow! Colin Elmes is now quoting me. My head is getting so big it's gonna explode!

 

[Colin Elmes]

Jonesy, I quote you all the time when writing editorials that trash our soccer community...

Dont get to excited, just finding my way around the software on this site. yours was the last entry

 

[djones]

Some call it trashing... other call it critiquing.

Dont get to excited,

Too late!

 

[Colin Elmes]

tick tick tick

guess what that is dj ?

 

[RL RCD]

As I can't argue for the BCSA but I have yet to see a Y-League club turn down a player because they can't afford it. In fact, I've personally witnessed clubs and programs bend-over backwards and explore every option so disadvantaged players can play in the league AND go to Florida for my team and others. Awesome programs stepped up for these players and it happens more than you think.

Then something has changed lately since it was not like that in the (recent) past. Parents were charged an arm and a leg for a Provincial team program and Y-league team program (maybe all the clubs are not the same; it used to be only Whitecaps, then it expanded to Coastal and Mountain, then Surrey joined and the last one that joined was Metro Ford).

I know a great number of very good players who never tried out for any of those programs due to the high cost that was set in advance. I have seen some Provincial teams and some Y-league teams that would struggle to compete in a metro/select league in BC yet they represented this province. This just proved to me that the high cost may be the reason number 1 not even to try out.

Anyway, those programs have to be available free of charge and only then you will have ALL the most talented kids trying out.

 

[Colin Elmes]

Then something has changed lately since it was not like that in the (recent) past. Parents were charged an arm and a leg for a Provincial team program and Y-league team program (maybe all the clubs are not the same; it used to be only Whitecaps, then it expanded to Coastal and Mountain, then Surrey joined and the last one that joined was Metro Ford).

I know a great number of very good players who never tried out for any of those programs due to the high cost that was set in advance. I have seen some Provincial teams and some Y-league teams that would struggle to compete in a metro/select league in BC yet they represented this province. This just proved to me that the high cost may be the reason number 1 not even to try out.

Anyway, those programs have to be available free of charge and only then you will have ALL the most talented kids trying out.

Blame the user pay model on our friends to the south. If they ever truly embrace the latino and african american mix in their country and make the game more accessible to all they would have won the W cup by 2010....

 

[djones]

tick tick tick

guess what that is dj ?

Count down to the start of the EPL?

Not La Liga, apparently!

 

[Colin Elmes]

Count down to the start of the EPL?

Not La Liga, apparently!

Its my stop watch. Taking bets(Captain?) On how long it takes CMF to politely ask you to limit your banter with the likes of me. Particularly once the HPL stuff kicks up again.

 

[PV]

I agree with some of your points but I'll take issue with a few you've made.
As I can't argue for the BCSA but I have yet to see a Y-League club turn down a player because they can't afford it. In fact, I've personally witnessed clubs and programs bend-over backwards and explore every option so disadvantaged players can play in the league AND go to Florida for my team and others. Awesome programs stepped up for these players and it happens more than you think.
Isn't that what the Whitecaps are doing now with their residency program?

The BCSA Provincial team program is heavily subsidized and it also has a player subsidy component. This year 2 players did not pay and 17 others got partial subsidy. The families who could afford to pay did pay and their children got several nice trips, including San Diego and Mexico. The money provided by all the parents totalled about half the cost of the entire Provincial team program.
The BCSA Provincial team program may change a lot for next summer.

 

[djones]

Care to say how besides the obvious facts impacted by the implementation of BCHPL (calendar, periodization)? Funding? Scouting visits etc...

 

[nocents]

It will be interesting to see how Whitecaps residency program impacts the Provincial teams. The bulk of the (male) players tend to come from the whitecaps and with residency plus the USSDA league play I can imagine it would play havoc with the Provincial program. What's the incentive for a residency player to join the provincial squad?

The financial model alone would have to change. Why pay to join the provincial squad if a player is in a full time and fully funded residency program? A similar problem applies for player in BCSPL. Up until now players would try out for the provincial team and those not making the team would try for Y-league, playing in only one program. With families committing up to $2500/yr for BCSPL, forking over another $5k for an overlapping program is not going to happen.

Without any direct insight into the competing training and game schedules, I have to think that if the provincial program is to continue, the whitecaps will have to make allowances for (or take over) the provincial program. Why would a player forego whitecaps training or game time to attend lower quality training with no consistent coaching staff? There was already a sentiment out there to opt for Y-league and take a pass on the provincial team due to the mismatched cost/benefit.

It will be interesting to see how the provincial program is slotted into the BCSPL and Residency programs.

 

[Mr Base]

Jus let me know why woud BC Soccer give Whitecaps Provincial program. Whitecaps are a pro club. Kids with them are young pros.
BC program has tonns of kids to chuse from. They do not have to come from White Caps or HPL. They will still have a team to play at any level.
BC program will be there. Many of us think there is better kids in gold than half of Metro kids and HPL. Parants are not willing to pay three four thousand.
Maybe for BC soccer they would. After all we only think that BC Soccer is for all the kids in local soccer. Caps only think of their Elite. They are not even close the best players. As you can see we only have one on our first team squad.

 

[bettermirror]

I am not aware of any Whitecaps youth players being on the BC Team. All the rosters indicate that the youths this summer on the BC Teams were from various metro or gold teams. Not one was listed as "Whitecaps." These players may have been Whitecaps in years gone by prior to playing on BC Team, but concurrently ... I am more than open to correction.

As for BC Teams this coming year - the BCPL will have windows when players can leave BCPL to train with BC Team. However....if they are asking $5g on top of the *roughly* $2500g for BCPL I can't see too many kids doing that! BC Teams need to be spread around the province anyway, so that kids in Williams Lake, Nelson, and .... heck, Nanaimo etc can have access to the same benefits as kids from Richmond and Burnaby.

As for Whitecaps Residency and youth USSDA teams....none of those kids will be eligible/available for the BC Team to the best of my knowledge. Why the heck would the Whitecaps release them to the program anyway when they are investing financially in each of those players as MLS requires all of its teams that play USSDA to have free entry for its youth? No WFC player will be on BC Team....also, why would they, as someone said, go play at a lower level?

ps-Hargreaves never tried out for u20 Canada. He tried out for u17 and was cut from that. He was 15.

 

[bettermirror]

Base - under no circumstances is Half of the Gold division better than metro (starting this year half the metro kids will not be better than BCPL). Having coached gold and metro and SYL I can tell you every Gold team that DOES WELL has a few metro players for sure. But usually only 2-3....rarely more. This may change with the high cost of BCPL I guess. But I doubt it.

 

[djones]

Many of us think there is better kids in gold than half of Metro kids and HPL.

Delusional and inaccurate statement! Only you think this.

As for Whitecaps Residency and youth USSDA teams....none of those kids will be eligible/available for the BC Team to the best of my knowledge.

We were told that these players are not going to be released for Club national championships so I highly doubt that they will be released for the PTP. This is putting the teams going to nationals in a real spot of bother.

 

[dezza]

We were told that these players are not going to be released for Club national championships so I highly doubt that they will be released for the PTP. This is putting the teams going to nationals in a real spot of bother.

Maybe the kids could phone in sick that weekend? Just don't post pictures on facebook


Out of curiosity, I remember when the Caps put their residency in the VMSL Premier Division, they had to wait for clearance to play as amateurs, and the first week or two of the season it ended up being the "prospects" playing in their place. What's the deal with the younger kids who are now in the Caps program? At what age do they become "professional"?