cascadesoccer
Well-Known Member
Canada has had 27 "massacres" in history as a Country, the US has had 7 mass shootings in the past week. Give your fcuking head a shake America.
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Gun control on a more serious level
- Thread starter Sir M
- Start date
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
It's way too complicated an issue and too entangled with other issues like Social Welfare, Prohibition, Systemic Racism, Lobbyism, Special Interest Groups, Unions to get anywhere with a debate on TTP.
to sum up: Until the people of the USA wake up and realize they need to spend more time and attention on their ruling class than they do on Oprah, Ellen and Kim Kardashian things will remain the same.
to sum up: Until the people of the USA wake up and realize they need to spend more time and attention on their ruling class than they do on Oprah, Ellen and Kim Kardashian things will remain the same.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Thanks, now I want to get myself a Beanie Copter. I bet the prices have gone up.
JBN you are absolutely correct. Even more, I don't think you have much debate here on TTP; maybe a little more among my friends, but I suppose those that are more on the "Pro Gun" side are guys like my neighbor Ray, who is a former correctional officer, hunter, and gun enthusiast himself, and others that are like him. He has all his firearms locked up in the basement, in the room beside the man cave w/ pool table, bar, poker table, and big screen. When the zombies come, I'm going to Ray's. That being said, when I discuss w/ Ray, he's more on the "Responsible Ownership and use" platform, and he also agrees that the easy access to guns down South is ridiculous. So, even though he disagrees with my hard stance, he is in full agreement that what we have here is at least a system we can all live with, while in the US, it's beyond out of control, and likely can't be pulled back. Maybe if Trump gets in, he'll build a wall here, too. Hopefully...
I'm not quite naive enough to believe there isn't a criminal faction in all of our neighborhoods of unregistered, and easily accessible guns. Obviously there is. But, I'd be interested to hear what that estimate is, relative to the whole population, and a comparative study of gun related incidences between Canada and the US, measured on a per-capita basis.
JBN, I'm glad you are back. Now I can rely on you to dig up the info via the Google. I'm too busy.
JBN you are absolutely correct. Even more, I don't think you have much debate here on TTP; maybe a little more among my friends, but I suppose those that are more on the "Pro Gun" side are guys like my neighbor Ray, who is a former correctional officer, hunter, and gun enthusiast himself, and others that are like him. He has all his firearms locked up in the basement, in the room beside the man cave w/ pool table, bar, poker table, and big screen. When the zombies come, I'm going to Ray's. That being said, when I discuss w/ Ray, he's more on the "Responsible Ownership and use" platform, and he also agrees that the easy access to guns down South is ridiculous. So, even though he disagrees with my hard stance, he is in full agreement that what we have here is at least a system we can all live with, while in the US, it's beyond out of control, and likely can't be pulled back. Maybe if Trump gets in, he'll build a wall here, too. Hopefully...
I'm not quite naive enough to believe there isn't a criminal faction in all of our neighborhoods of unregistered, and easily accessible guns. Obviously there is. But, I'd be interested to hear what that estimate is, relative to the whole population, and a comparative study of gun related incidences between Canada and the US, measured on a per-capita basis.
JBN, I'm glad you are back. Now I can rely on you to dig up the info via the Google. I'm too busy.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Well while I research those stats for you Dude, Mass Shooting in Germany today... masked shooter in a theatre, has killed/maimed ~25 and maybe more. Germany is one of the nations often cited by the Liberals in the US as a place where Gun Control is working. Germany is considered to be one of the nations with the best gun control policies (by both the "left" and the "right")
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Also a thought prior to researching for the Dude... I don't think most people have a black and white train of thought or opinion on gun control. I think generally speaking people see it as a nuanced and complicated topic. Wedge politics and populist politicians make it black and white to froth people up to serve their ends.
In Canada our laws are pretty good. You can't own/possess any automatic firearms unless you have inherited them and they're for collection purposes and you have a Prohibited PAL, you are a military man, police etc...Restricted PAL's cover other firearms such as handguns... again more training and background checks etc.
The old adage of 'If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" stands the test. People who desire/require guns to aid in/carry out illegal activities will find them. Be it protection whilst carrying out trafficking of prohibited substances or humans, turf wars between gangs usually associated with trafficking, and/or loony tunes seeking weapons to hurt people because they're mentally ill (religious fanaticism/terrorism/straight-up old-fashioned schizophrenia etc.)
Adding additional laws around guns makes it more difficult for regular law abiding citizens, and there's nothing wrong with that, because it dis-incentivizes people to attain more guns meaning less people like neighbour Ray to have his house and guns burglarized and thus more guns on the street, although it's going to be tough to pull off a mass shooting at Langley Colossus with a Bolt Action .300 Win Mag. The negative argument to additional laws is perception of wastage of public funds for additional bureaucrats to manage additional laws etc that only compliant law abiding citizens are going to follow anyways/
If the Yanks close the loopholes around waiting periods and background checks for the online purchases and the gun show purchases they will go a long way to ensure less crazies get guns, but the motivated nut-jobs will always find them. The easiest way to short circuit guns on the street in the grey/black market is to end the War on Drugs and the Systemic Racism issues in major cities and states around ghetto's, city planning, and education. There's blood on the hands of the unions, specifically the Prison Guards unions, police Unions and Teachers Unions who all lobby against loosening of drugs laws, funding of charter schools, merit based measuring and pay for teachers etc.
In Canada our laws are pretty good. You can't own/possess any automatic firearms unless you have inherited them and they're for collection purposes and you have a Prohibited PAL, you are a military man, police etc...Restricted PAL's cover other firearms such as handguns... again more training and background checks etc.
The old adage of 'If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" stands the test. People who desire/require guns to aid in/carry out illegal activities will find them. Be it protection whilst carrying out trafficking of prohibited substances or humans, turf wars between gangs usually associated with trafficking, and/or loony tunes seeking weapons to hurt people because they're mentally ill (religious fanaticism/terrorism/straight-up old-fashioned schizophrenia etc.)
Adding additional laws around guns makes it more difficult for regular law abiding citizens, and there's nothing wrong with that, because it dis-incentivizes people to attain more guns meaning less people like neighbour Ray to have his house and guns burglarized and thus more guns on the street, although it's going to be tough to pull off a mass shooting at Langley Colossus with a Bolt Action .300 Win Mag. The negative argument to additional laws is perception of wastage of public funds for additional bureaucrats to manage additional laws etc that only compliant law abiding citizens are going to follow anyways/
If the Yanks close the loopholes around waiting periods and background checks for the online purchases and the gun show purchases they will go a long way to ensure less crazies get guns, but the motivated nut-jobs will always find them. The easiest way to short circuit guns on the street in the grey/black market is to end the War on Drugs and the Systemic Racism issues in major cities and states around ghetto's, city planning, and education. There's blood on the hands of the unions, specifically the Prison Guards unions, police Unions and Teachers Unions who all lobby against loosening of drugs laws, funding of charter schools, merit based measuring and pay for teachers etc.
The article I read was Germany would of had a mass shooting in a theater but the gun man could not get a real gun like in the US so he was the only one shot.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
caveat:
United States: 10.54 per 100,000 (3.43 homicide, 6.69 suicide, .18 unintentional, .08 undetermined)
I have thoughts on why the above.... now that doesn't include unreported...some studies will have more to do with that.
caveat:
Canada: 1.97 firearm related deaths per 100,000 population per year. (.38 homicide, 1.52 Suicides, .05 unintentional, .02 undetermined)
United States: 10.54 per 100,000 (3.43 homicide, 6.69 suicide, .18 unintentional, .08 undetermined)
I have thoughts on why the above.... now that doesn't include unreported...some studies will have more to do with that.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Indeed STD. Just googled it (I heard it on the radio this am stuck in traffic) appears that the man took hostages with a rifle and the ~25 people hurt were hurt by tear gas etc when German Special forces came in and fatally wounded him. Had he been armed with an AR-15 and a belt of cartridges ready to go things would've been different for sure. Kind of hard to take down 50+ people with a bolt action rifle where you can only get 3-5 shots off per 10 seconds and then have to reload.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/europe/germany-cinema-attack
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Went back and re-read the original thread front to back.... remembering this conversation really started around Ferguson, and now we've come out the other side and around #BlackLivesMatter and various myriad other Social Justice Issues.... I present to you a nice CBC Short Doc made by Rich Williamson, someone I recently became pals with.
Frame 394
Frame 394
Well articulated.
One of the biggest issues, IMO. This is a massive part of the problem, especially among the republican vote. I have a lot of Yank colleagues and friends, and frequently I steer wide of the gun discussion because most of them are Republican, and (it seems), because they are Republican, it means blindly supporting the Right to Bear Arms. Political arguments are bad for business and friendships, and I find myself pretty much unable to keep a cool head when discussing gun control with Republican Americans. Shocking, I know.
The political system in the US creates an environment where demographic division means you support your party, no matter what. Very rarely will you see an American change coats, like we saw up here in our most recent Federal election. Therefore, the system itself creates an environment that makes progressive change nearly impossible.
One of the biggest issues, IMO. This is a massive part of the problem, especially among the republican vote. I have a lot of Yank colleagues and friends, and frequently I steer wide of the gun discussion because most of them are Republican, and (it seems), because they are Republican, it means blindly supporting the Right to Bear Arms. Political arguments are bad for business and friendships, and I find myself pretty much unable to keep a cool head when discussing gun control with Republican Americans. Shocking, I know.
The political system in the US creates an environment where demographic division means you support your party, no matter what. Very rarely will you see an American change coats, like we saw up here in our most recent Federal election. Therefore, the system itself creates an environment that makes progressive change nearly impossible.
trece verde
Well-Known Member
Not really impressed with Sowell's one-sided rant and the constant "liberal"-bashing In JBN's source. It has a tendency to detract from any validity that might be contained in the research he's misquoting.
It's nearly impossible to have a dispassionate discussion on the topic due to the fanaticism with which it's approached south of the border, but stats thus far don't bear out the current Second Amendment interpretations. The "armed and vigilant public" have NOT stopped mass shootings from happening. Allegedly responsible gun owners have NOT stepped in to stop shooters - this is a myth frequently perpetuated by concealed-carry proponents.
Maybe it's just me, but sanity would suggest that for the percentage of the US population who fall off the ends of the bell curve of rationality (which SHOULD be roughly equivalent to the percentage here), limiting access to items that can easily perforate the rest of the population with high-speed lead would be a good thing. Background checks for purchasing both weapons and ammunition need to be mandatory. Criminal record? No. History of mental illness? No. On a no-fly list? No. Member of a recognized group with an agenda to blow up large public buildings? No. The Second Amendment does not need to be repealed, but it does need to be rationalized in context of "what's going on" as one candidate put it.
Dude is correct - that won't stop the criminal element from getting heaters. In the Excited States, not much will stop that until they're harder to acquire across the board. Maybe an amnesty program like Australia implemented would help; maybe it won't. I do agree with JBN that they need to resolve their social problems along with this, although I'm not quite sure how unions are connected to gun control issues there...
BTW, my propeller beanie is battery-powered and stays attached...
It's nearly impossible to have a dispassionate discussion on the topic due to the fanaticism with which it's approached south of the border, but stats thus far don't bear out the current Second Amendment interpretations. The "armed and vigilant public" have NOT stopped mass shootings from happening. Allegedly responsible gun owners have NOT stepped in to stop shooters - this is a myth frequently perpetuated by concealed-carry proponents.
Maybe it's just me, but sanity would suggest that for the percentage of the US population who fall off the ends of the bell curve of rationality (which SHOULD be roughly equivalent to the percentage here), limiting access to items that can easily perforate the rest of the population with high-speed lead would be a good thing. Background checks for purchasing both weapons and ammunition need to be mandatory. Criminal record? No. History of mental illness? No. On a no-fly list? No. Member of a recognized group with an agenda to blow up large public buildings? No. The Second Amendment does not need to be repealed, but it does need to be rationalized in context of "what's going on" as one candidate put it.
Dude is correct - that won't stop the criminal element from getting heaters. In the Excited States, not much will stop that until they're harder to acquire across the board. Maybe an amnesty program like Australia implemented would help; maybe it won't. I do agree with JBN that they need to resolve their social problems along with this, although I'm not quite sure how unions are connected to gun control issues there...
BTW, my propeller beanie is battery-powered and stays attached...
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Good post TV.
For the record, I'm not stating a position on either side of the gun control debate, I'm pointing out facts and opinions en route to stating it's more than just "Gun Control"
I'll tell you exactly how teachers are connected. It's part of the systemic racism issue in the "Excited States" (I quite like that and won't ask your permission to steal and use going forward because you likely didn't come up with it on your own )
It's fairly easy to see why Police and Prison Guard unions lobby to keep prohibition laws as-is. Same and More arrests keeps cops employed trickles on down to more incarcerations meaning same and more prison guards required...
People often speak about education being one of/the key, yet the school system is flawed and the basis of argument held by the teachers unions down south hurt the poorest (read; blackest inner city hoods) the most. Study after study has shown that when youths are motivated to find purpose they succeed even in the face of some of the most difficult socio-economic hurdles to jump over. So when teachers unions lobby against Scholarships and funding for charter schools for inner city kids (they don't discriminate per se, but the outcomes hit the hoods the hardest) the "crabs" can't escape the bucket.
http://fortune.com/2015/03/10/harlem-charter-school/
For the record, I'm not stating a position on either side of the gun control debate, I'm pointing out facts and opinions en route to stating it's more than just "Gun Control"
I'll tell you exactly how teachers are connected. It's part of the systemic racism issue in the "Excited States" (I quite like that and won't ask your permission to steal and use going forward because you likely didn't come up with it on your own
)It's fairly easy to see why Police and Prison Guard unions lobby to keep prohibition laws as-is. Same and More arrests keeps cops employed trickles on down to more incarcerations meaning same and more prison guards required...
People often speak about education being one of/the key, yet the school system is flawed and the basis of argument held by the teachers unions down south hurt the poorest (read; blackest inner city hoods) the most. Study after study has shown that when youths are motivated to find purpose they succeed even in the face of some of the most difficult socio-economic hurdles to jump over. So when teachers unions lobby against Scholarships and funding for charter schools for inner city kids (they don't discriminate per se, but the outcomes hit the hoods the hardest) the "crabs" can't escape the bucket.
http://fortune.com/2015/03/10/harlem-charter-school/
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
For those really interested in some nuanced (Not a "Republican" versus "Democrat") discussion see this podcast, long but worth the watch/listen.
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- #320
First used on TTP in 1999 by ColinFastshowIt's part of the systemic racism issue in the "Excited States" (I quite like that and won't ask your permission to steal and use going forward because you likely didn't come up with it on your own
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