animal said:
hargreaves was cut from a u-17 team when he was 15 years old. He had also stated many times that he would play for Canada. one of those times was on a soccer central interview not too long before he got the call from England.Welcome to the TTP community
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Daniel Fernandes - Portugal Goalie
- Thread starter junglee
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hargreaves was cut from a u-17 team when he was 15 years old. He had also stated many times that he would play for Canada. one of those times was on a soccer central interview not too long before he got the call from England.
And I bet if you spoke to those responsible for letting him go, they would make total sense.
Canada is a nation of rationalizers. Actually I should say, the bureaucracy in this country are a bunch of rationalizers.
Canada is a nation of rationalizers. Actually I should say, the bureaucracy in this country are a bunch of rationalizers.
bdogg said:
I think you are being a bit harsh when you criticize people born in this country and who because of a good opportunity choose to play for some other country.
Look at the number of Canadian national team members who were born elsewhere and who emigrated to Canada and donned Canadian jerseys! By that standard these new Canadians would be judged negatively.
Soccer is a tough game to make a decent living in and all of us can name handfuls, if not more, of local players who have gone to other countries to try and make their pro teams. If someone also can find a way on to their national team somehow so be it. I hardly think it is treason.
It is too bad that this kid who sounds good didn't get selected here, but that is the breaks - good for him that he has got a shot to play for Portugal. He has to think of what's best for him, his career and future.
Every coach has his/her own view of who and what makes a good player. Look at football where Trent Green couldn't and didn't stick with the BC Lions back in 1994 and now he is the starter for KC Chiefs where Casey Printers is no. 4. He came to BC in late October in 1994 and dressed for two games and was gone in early Nov. BC with Kent Austin and Danny MacManus went on to win a GC. Trent Green didn't play a down in live action until he got 1997 when he tossed one pass- he was always no. 3 QB. In '98 he started 15 games and has been doing fine since then. Point: coaches see different things.
Holger Osiek was the typical german dictator that tried to play hardball with a promising kid and Canadian soccer paid the price... Other guys quit the Nat's during Holger's tenure and since have returned... I don't hear anyone complaining about Thomas Razinki's decision to come back into the fold!!!
Unfortunately (for Canada), Hargreaves was young (like this Pork chop kid) and he has a bright future in the game because of the choice he made after not getting selected in the begining...
Did he make Fernandes the back up and just not get him on the pitch??? Did he just cut him because a friend's kid would make a good bench warmer???
Dude and I would like to know the real history on this kid before calling Mitchell a stupid head!!!
Even if Canada gave this kid a chance at the perfect timing why on earth would he accept and stay where soccer is like # 3 or 4 behind Hockey, CFL, Curling and Fcuken Lawnbowling? Money talks and this kid will definately make more anywhere but here.
For the most part the players like this young GK that Junglee mentioned are moving for economic reasons/better life, etc just like those who have come to Canada and made our national teams in many sports like track and field and soccer. I am sure if they had the opportunities to play pro here and make good money most would stay at home or in Canada anyways.
The rules and the moves run in both directions.
You are right that soccer to improve in Canada needs these guys to stay at home and play for the national team but every individual player has to make a decision that is best for their career. The cold hard reality is that some teams in the UK for example don't want their Canadians to venture home for their games and will just as easily chop the guy as keep him if he is replaceable which is not too hard over there. This is a challenge for a guy struggling to win or keep a spot on his side. If he goes home to play for Canada, will he get his spot back when he gets back? These are economic realities as the guy has to eat.
The heydey of Canadian national soccer teams came from the number of locals who got to play in the old NASL with some pretty good pros from leagues in Europe and Great Britain and South America. These opportunities are few and far between now and to begrudge someone a chance to make a living at soccer while wrapping yourself in the flag is noble but somewhat flawed.
The national hockey teams of Germany and Italy if I recall it right have ex-Canadians playing for them as they qualify under the rules.
It is not that I don't think there should be pride in playing for your country - I do. But, I am not about to criticize someone for shifting his loyalties to another national team if that is what will help his/her career and make a better life for themselves and their family.
The facts are that there are just handfuls of Canadians who will make a good living out of playing soccer so they have to find ways to do that even if it means a new flag adorning their jersey. The Craig Forrests of the world who make it big in the EPL or any other league overseas and who can also help their country are so few and far between that this young GK should be cheered if he makes it to the Portugal national team. It doesn't make his family any less good Canadians.
The rules and the moves run in both directions.
You are right that soccer to improve in Canada needs these guys to stay at home and play for the national team but every individual player has to make a decision that is best for their career. The cold hard reality is that some teams in the UK for example don't want their Canadians to venture home for their games and will just as easily chop the guy as keep him if he is replaceable which is not too hard over there. This is a challenge for a guy struggling to win or keep a spot on his side. If he goes home to play for Canada, will he get his spot back when he gets back? These are economic realities as the guy has to eat.
The heydey of Canadian national soccer teams came from the number of locals who got to play in the old NASL with some pretty good pros from leagues in Europe and Great Britain and South America. These opportunities are few and far between now and to begrudge someone a chance to make a living at soccer while wrapping yourself in the flag is noble but somewhat flawed.
The national hockey teams of Germany and Italy if I recall it right have ex-Canadians playing for them as they qualify under the rules.
It is not that I don't think there should be pride in playing for your country - I do. But, I am not about to criticize someone for shifting his loyalties to another national team if that is what will help his/her career and make a better life for themselves and their family.
The facts are that there are just handfuls of Canadians who will make a good living out of playing soccer so they have to find ways to do that even if it means a new flag adorning their jersey. The Craig Forrests of the world who make it big in the EPL or any other league overseas and who can also help their country are so few and far between that this young GK should be cheered if he makes it to the Portugal national team. It doesn't make his family any less good Canadians.
Reccos, good post. i don't begrudge any player going to Europe to play football. that's where the best teams, training and money are, it's only natural(and i would hope) that the cream of the Canadian talent would end up there.
I'm well aware of FIFA's rules regarding which countries you can play for and if you are a good enough player it doesn't matter which national team you represent. Hargreaves was a starter at Bayern before he played for England and Fernandes was a starter for PAOK before he opted for Portugal.
I have huge respect for the guys like Devos, Stalteri, Forrest and Radzinski who made the trips back for w/c and gold cup qualifiers but we should save the "cheering" for the players that as you pointed out are possibly sacraficing their club positions to represent this county.
Right now there are a huge number of Canadians playing overseas (check out the 'Canadians Abroad' threads on the vees board or the one on Bigsoccer) most if not all of these guys are making a good living and still manage to represent Canada on the international stage.
cheers
I'm well aware of FIFA's rules regarding which countries you can play for and if you are a good enough player it doesn't matter which national team you represent. Hargreaves was a starter at Bayern before he played for England and Fernandes was a starter for PAOK before he opted for Portugal.
I have huge respect for the guys like Devos, Stalteri, Forrest and Radzinski who made the trips back for w/c and gold cup qualifiers but we should save the "cheering" for the players that as you pointed out are possibly sacraficing their club positions to represent this county.
Right now there are a huge number of Canadians playing overseas (check out the 'Canadians Abroad' threads on the vees board or the one on Bigsoccer) most if not all of these guys are making a good living and still manage to represent Canada on the international stage.
cheers
crnogorski fudbaler
Member
Where is laRSONN?,when you need him!Need more input here do we now.I know the coach who gave him the stepping stone to europe and helped him in a soccer school he took part in here with a local professional soccer coach from europe...he does have that edge in his game....i don't see how the csa could have missed him....
The Apprentice
Well-Known Member
I know DF through some buddies in Van and the guy is a beast on and off the field. Heard some stories of his nights out at the clubs in Europe and they were pretty wild. He signed a deal worth 300k with a goalie glove company awhile back. When he plays in games he wears a black tank top underneath with the words "east van" on the back.
crnogorski fudbaler said:Where is laRSONN?,when you need him!Need more input here do we now.I know the coach who gave him the stepping stone to europe and helped him in a soccer school he took part in here with a local professional soccer coach from europe...he does have that edge in his game....i don't see how the csa could have missed him....
From what i remember he was with Canada at th 2003 U-20 world cup. he didn't get on the pitch during the tournament so he was never "cap-tied" to Canada. over the next couple of years there was only world cup qualifiers and at that time he wasn't ready for the full national team. fast forward a little while and he was asked to come to the training session the Men's team had in Manchester a year or so ago - he refused(probably because at this time portugal was showing interest) and the rest is history.
You can't really blame the CSA as far as Fernandes is concerned they were well aware of him. they had him on the U-20 team and when the time was right they asked him to train with the full mens team.
Good on the young lad from East Van!!!
Unlike bdogg, I blame all of the tits at the CSA (especially recently canned Pipe) for everything that has gone wrong in Canadian football... They over look every fcuking program in the country, yet don't seem to have a clue as to what's falling apart around them... Why not use the press to lobby for more funding for our sport!!! If third world countries can manage to support their boys, why can't we???
Unfortunately, the overall Canadian mentality for equality and fair play has seriosly hurt the progress of any WC qualifying campaign... It is time we had some men with balls at the helm with not only a background in the game, but great business credentials... People with the #1 goal to one day qualify for the WC again!!! Whatever the cost!!!
Do we need a yank??? Fcuking hope not!!!
That said, it is also disappointing the sports media in this country have stood by for years without printing a single piece on asking the question: what's wrong with the senior mens team!!! The writers and reporters obviously don't have the passion for the game and don't believe it is taken very seriously throughout the country. WTF???
Brutal.
Unlike bdogg, I blame all of the tits at the CSA (especially recently canned Pipe) for everything that has gone wrong in Canadian football... They over look every fcuking program in the country, yet don't seem to have a clue as to what's falling apart around them... Why not use the press to lobby for more funding for our sport!!! If third world countries can manage to support their boys, why can't we???
Unfortunately, the overall Canadian mentality for equality and fair play has seriosly hurt the progress of any WC qualifying campaign... It is time we had some men with balls at the helm with not only a background in the game, but great business credentials... People with the #1 goal to one day qualify for the WC again!!! Whatever the cost!!!
Do we need a yank??? Fcuking hope not!!!
That said, it is also disappointing the sports media in this country have stood by for years without printing a single piece on asking the question: what's wrong with the senior mens team!!! The writers and reporters obviously don't have the passion for the game and don't believe it is taken very seriously throughout the country. WTF???
Brutal.
i'm no fan of the csa. i think they have been pretty much useless for as long as i've been following the sport. all i am saying in regards to Fernandes is that in this case it wasn't their fault. he decided to represent his parents country not his own
What about players or athletes who come here from other countries and then perform under the Canadian flag?
The list of Canadian Olympians is pretty long of those who came here from other countries and then went on to fame under our flag. The pre-Brazil game story quoted Dale Mitchell as saying they were working on passport issues for some guy he wanted but it wouldn't get done prior to that game.
Here in Hong Kong, some of the pre-Olympic Games discussion right now is getting HKSAR/China passports for some top equestrian riders who have been backed by HK locals. Equestrian events will be here in HK so this is a hot local topic.
It is very hard to come down on soccer players like Hargreaves when you consider how tough it is for Canada to field a decent international side. Same with this young kid going to Portugal. The other piece to this is that Canadians overseas have a tough time making European clubs as they are foreigners and there is limited value in giving a Canadian a slot to play versus some guy from huge markets like South Korea or China where the EPL clubs want to market their wares. What this means is these guys have trouble getting released for games back in North America and run the risk of simply being dropped for some local comparable player. I'd cut Canadians overseas some slack on these grounds alone.
I recall a few World Cups ago that if a player could spell "Ireland" he qualified for their national team or he had a relative that ever set foot in Ireland he was okay. Look at how French France's team is. Or how German the Germans are.
The horse is pretty much glue now.
Reccos, it comes down to morals, and loyalty.
Many of those athletes you site coming to Canada and wearing Canadian colors do so out of love for what Canada has done for them. Many left undesirable situations, even deadly circumstances, and now having landed here and been granted citizenship are proud to give back. Daniel Igalie winning gold, dancing around the Canadian flag, then bending down to kiss it is one of the all-time greatest Canadian sports moments, and perfectly illustrated a story of a man who was proud to give back to his adopted country.
If anything Hargreaves should have played for Germany if he wasn't going to play for his native country. At least then I could understand why he’d turn his back on Canada. England? That screams of opportunism as much as Lenox Lewis when he fought pro under the British flag. Fcuk both of them. Either one of those boys were going to be multi-millionaires no matter what they did nationally, so in my mind, they are both turncoats.
Reccos, it comes down to morals, and loyalty.
Many of those athletes you site coming to Canada and wearing Canadian colors do so out of love for what Canada has done for them. Many left undesirable situations, even deadly circumstances, and now having landed here and been granted citizenship are proud to give back. Daniel Igalie winning gold, dancing around the Canadian flag, then bending down to kiss it is one of the all-time greatest Canadian sports moments, and perfectly illustrated a story of a man who was proud to give back to his adopted country.
If anything Hargreaves should have played for Germany if he wasn't going to play for his native country. At least then I could understand why he’d turn his back on Canada. England? That screams of opportunism as much as Lenox Lewis when he fought pro under the British flag. Fcuk both of them. Either one of those boys were going to be multi-millionaires no matter what they did nationally, so in my mind, they are both turncoats.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Dude and I agree 100% as evidenced by us puking up the same rhetoric to the same people that don't agree to the normal thinking folks opinions
Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has has one, and everyone else's stinks.
Fact is that the big three offenders (De Guzman v2.0 , Whoregreaves, and Fernandez) left Canada where they were born, raised, schooled, and trained and then left for promising careers overseas.
The difference between foreign born players landing here is that they left a country as a refugee, or in search of a better life, and were abadoning the country they were exiting because they have no care for that country as most of those countries had no care for them. Subsequently a lot of these "foreign Canadians" come here and are trained and schooled here...I'm not 100% sure if Ben Johnson was an accomplished sprinter before he landed in Toronto from jamaica, same goes for Donovan, Igali, etc...
Jon De Guzman is the only guy I see some justification in him playing for another nation than Canada in that he left at 14 or 15 for Holland, and was "Trained" as a proper footballer there, not here and then chose to play for the country that trained him.
Whoregreaves should have capped for Canada, if not than he should have waited out the process for a German Passport and Naturalization Process, but that would have taken 4+ years, And to boot, I'm not sure he would crack a midfield with Ballack, Borowski, Schweinsteiger, Frings, and now with Hitzlsperger and Trochowski he would still have a hard grind. Going into a weakened English midfield stinks to high heaven of him looking for an opportunity to get onto the most glamourous overrated team in the world (England) and because of his Parents and a UK passport in he went. Opportunistic to say the least
Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has has one, and everyone else's stinks.
Fact is that the big three offenders (De Guzman v2.0 , Whoregreaves, and Fernandez) left Canada where they were born, raised, schooled, and trained and then left for promising careers overseas.
The difference between foreign born players landing here is that they left a country as a refugee, or in search of a better life, and were abadoning the country they were exiting because they have no care for that country as most of those countries had no care for them. Subsequently a lot of these "foreign Canadians" come here and are trained and schooled here...I'm not 100% sure if Ben Johnson was an accomplished sprinter before he landed in Toronto from jamaica, same goes for Donovan, Igali, etc...
Jon De Guzman is the only guy I see some justification in him playing for another nation than Canada in that he left at 14 or 15 for Holland, and was "Trained" as a proper footballer there, not here and then chose to play for the country that trained him.
Whoregreaves should have capped for Canada, if not than he should have waited out the process for a German Passport and Naturalization Process, but that would have taken 4+ years, And to boot, I'm not sure he would crack a midfield with Ballack, Borowski, Schweinsteiger, Frings, and now with Hitzlsperger and Trochowski he would still have a hard grind. Going into a weakened English midfield stinks to high heaven of him looking for an opportunity to get onto the most glamourous overrated team in the world (England) and because of his Parents and a UK passport in he went. Opportunistic to say the least
I have to disagree with the Lennox Lewis analogy. Making the professional decision to fight out of the UK has no relation to choosing to represent another country in international competition. Lewis did in fact fight for Canada at the Olympics, where he won the gold medal and represented us proudly. There is no way that Lewis could have succeeded fighting pro out of Canada, because there is simply not enough competition or promotion. If he didn't move to the UK then it would've been the USA, so I think he made a pretty good choice.
How come no one bitches about Arturo Gatti quitting the '92 Canadian Olympic team to go fight pro in the US?
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