2007 Civic Strike(s)...

[Backline16]

It's the system I despise and, for me, land ownership is part of that.

The reality is, and always will be, that people wrapped up in thier own lives never see the big picture. They buy into all the crap they see on TV, and believe everything they read, and never realize that despite never pulling the trigger, they are part of the machine that represents all that is wrong with humanity. It is nice to run into people like youself Dap, and I for one, see your point of view as well.

But that said, we have to realize that some people need to have their heads in the sand in order to function. And there is nothing we can do to change that. In our lifetime there is going to be major change, and I would rather see it coming, than be ignorant.

 

[Dapotayto]

Very nice post BL16 and thanks for the kind words. Most of the responses to my posts have been complete knee-jerk reactions without actually taking even one single second to consider the merits of what I am saying or why I, and others, conduct their lives in such a manner. And although I am vegan (yes, Dude) and big advocate of bike culture, I am not a hippie, nor an anarchist, nor a rabid environmentalist, protester, or indeed, a pacifist. But I have many, many issues with the manner in which our society is conducted and am acutely aware of the role that my and other people's actions, and more importantly, inactions, no matter how small or benign, play within this setup. In the quote below you have escapsulated what I was unable to articulate, so thanks for that too.

They never realize that despite never pulling the trigger, they are part of the machine that represents all that is wrong with humanity

 

[Regs]

I don't get it. Isn't Dap the machine?

 

[Dude]

...we can't all work in small business. Someone has to do actual work.

Ummm...what do you think independant unionized plumbers are? Small business guys. The VAST majority of business in Canada is driven by small businesses. That includes plumbers, independant trades guys, etc.

 

[Dude]

Deep thoughts. Wow.

So how about those gravel pushers?

Dap: I KNOW you ate one of those Johnstonville Brats, and helped yourself to one over cooked serloin on our trip.

The jig is up, "Vegan".

 

[Backline16]

Ummm...what do you think independant unionized plumbers are? Small business guys. The VAST majority of business in Canada is driven by small businesses. That includes plumbers, independant trades guys, etc.

Your right... sort of.

There are alot of small businesses in Canada. But our economy is driven by resource based industries. Mining, softwood, pulp and paper, oil and gas to name a few. And there are also some very big employers in the private sector that drive many local economies.

There may be more small businesses, but they represent a drop in the bucket in terms of actual dollars to our economy. Fact is, more and more Canadians are working for large corperations. Take Retail for example. Not a whole lot of independant mom and pop stores left in BC. Most work for the big box chains. Not small businesses.

 

[Dapotayto]

Dap: I KNOW you ate one of those Johnstonville Brats, and helped yourself to one over cooked serloin on our trip.

The jig is up, "Vegan".

And I enjoyed every bite of the flesh. Yummy pig parts. I have always made exceptions and that won't change (especially when Notty is cooking), but I have walked the walk as much as I can the last couple of years and I'm pretty happy with it.

Sorry to interrupt. Continue, please.

 

[Dude]

Actually BL, you need to look at the stats. A small business, I think, is defined as fewer than 50 employees. Canada's economy is hugely dependant on the small business across this country. Last I read something like 80% of our economy is driven by the small business, and the vast majority of people are employed by a small business.

Yes, mining may be the industry, but that industry is supported by thousands of small agencies, manufacturers, and suppliers. Everything from the one man consulting business, to a 5 man capital equipment company like ours, to the independent draftsman that produces drawings.

Even in retail, that sector is hugely dominant by "Mom and Pop" type operations. Restaurants, corner stores, service shops. What you see is only one small side, but just walk down any street in Vancouver. If you combined all the people working for a small business, then compared to medium and large, the numbers still show most folks work for a small business.

If I have time, I will look it up for you, but maybe this is something you should take my word for- the small business in this country is the absolute heart and soul of the economy. So when you and Dap start talking about "the Big Picture", maybe what you need to consider is all the "little pictures"- that most people in this country are working for a small business, and somebody had to take a risk to start that. Either they put their mortgage up to get a loan, worked without a salary for a few years, or simply poured every cent they had into their company.

So, maybe now you can see why someone like me is so disgusted when it comes to the union mentality. I'm proud of my company, and of my employees. They put a ton of passion and professionalism into their work. If they have to work late one day, or show up early, or be on a plane on Thanksgiving (like Rob had to this week), they don't bitch and moan, they just do it. I don’t even have to tell them. In fact, I gave Rob the option of staying home Friday to hang out w/ his wife and kids, but sure enough, he was out commissioning a job Friday morning. They take pride in their work, and it shows. They know that at the end of the year, the extra effort will pay off in the form of their Christmas bonuses.

A union would drive all that passion out of my guys, but thank God they understand and embrace the notion of hard earned work.

 

[Backline16]

Actually BL, you need to look at the stats.

So, maybe now you can see why someone like me is so disgusted when it comes to the union mentality. I'm proud of my company, and of my employees. They put a ton of passion and professionalism into their work. If they have to work late one day, or show up early, or be on a plane on Thanksgiving (like Rob had to this week), they don't bitch and moan, they just do it. I don’t even have to tell them. In fact, I gave Rob the option of staying home Friday to hang out w/ his wife and kids, but sure enough, he was out commissioning a job Friday morning. They take pride in their work, and it shows. They know that at the end of the year, the extra effort will pay off in the form of their Christmas bonuses.

A union would drive all that passion out of my guys, but thank God they understand and embrace the notion of hard earned work.

I am a rational guy, and I have to admit, you know much more about business than I do. I will concede the point Dude. You are right, and your arguement is sound. BS is BS, thank you for pointing out my weakness.

Your company takes care of thier employees, and that is fantastic. I have worked for companies that don't. Companies that take advantage of thier employees, or have no respect for the work that is done, or pay far less than what is fair. Unions have their place, and despite what some think, they are not out of date. Their right to form association is guarded by our our bill of rights, and if we had a utopia of businesses sharing profits like your company does, unions would not be necessary.

As for driving the passion out of the job... I think some jobs in our society are tough to get real enthusiastic about. One guy moves on average, 22 tons or 65 Cubic meters of freight from one side of my crossdock to the other per day. My industry exsists in order to make 3 shipping containers into 2 rail units, saving one spot on a train moving east. We are in the middle of Christmas peak period and are stripping 800 containers per week for Walmart and Canadian Tire. My guys worked through the entire Long Week end, and most are pulling 10 hour days. They may not be so passionate, but the work their asses off. They won't be getting any Christmas bonuses, but their compensation has been structured into their hourly wage plus overtime. So spare me on the "embrace and understand the notion of hard work"... HARD work does not involve wearing a tie, sitting at a computer, and pushing a pen around.

Some people need to be defined by thier career, and that is thier choice. But others place a higher value on family and free time. Some work 70 hours a week trying to make a ton of money, or get a rung higher in on the company flow chart, others work 40 hours a week, and eat supper with their kids every night. To each his own.

I have respect for anyone who works, because I understand that we all can't go to University and work white collar jobs, and we all can't work Labour jobs. In fact, some never even have that choice. Our Society is a pyramid, few at the top, many on the bottom. Have's think they are in control, Have not's think they are powerless... I can't wait for the revolution.

"The wheel goes on and on, round and round it goes.
Those who try to sit on top will soon be crushed, don't you know.
It takes but one revolution, for the tables to be turned
And the coins that spill upon the floor, are retribution earned."

-S. MacNeil

 

[Dude]

You know BL, you make a killer argument, and explain your point very articulately, then come up with this one:

HARD work does not involve wearing a tie, sitting at a computer, and pushing a pen around.

Are you bloody kidding me? First, if you are under the impression that this is what somebody in technical sales does, you are sadly mistaken. You may have just described a bookkeeper, that's about it.

Some people work hard w/ their hands & back, others w/ their mind, some combine. My key guys, in a given day, may be on a couple of jobsites, which may involve crawling inside a bughouse to find out why it's plugged, or it may involve a boardroom presentation to 10 BC Hydro Power Smart specialists. We might be playing "doctor" on a large boiler system, trying to figure out why they are going through sets of $2,000 bearings in a matter of weeks, a breakdown that costs our client $25K every day, and we need to prove to them that it isn't a so much a problem with our equipment, but more of a problem with our equipment being operated under conditions far harsher than originally specified. None of us are engineers, but for some reason, our practical experience and knowledge can find the problem and recommend the solution faster and with greater certainty that the mechanical engineer that cokced up the spec.

I may one day be holed up in the office estimating job, or creating a proposal. In that day, I may have to fire a contractor, or make a sheepish phone call to a plant manager to explain why his equipment is late, and why his planned production start-up will be delayed, or why his abrasive blasting booth may be down another week. Whatever. It's called rolling with the punches, being flexible, taking risks, and making decisions. We have to do it every day.

So, when you say "to each their own", damn straight! Some guys would simply prefer to use their hands, back, and brawn to follow orders, and collect a paycheck. This guy can go home every day, and honestly forget about work till the next day when he punches the clock for another shift.

Others prefer the stimulation of using their mind- weather that be in problem solving, negotiating a deal, or designing a system. In our business, it is the later, and my guys may not be physically pushing the limits, but mentally they take on a lot, they make the decisions, and take the risks. Somewhere along the way, your team of guys moves our container from the rail to the flat deck. What you don't get or care is what is in the container, why, and where it is going. One of your guys fails to file the paperwork correctly? Oh well, big deal. Mistakes happen, right? Well, on my end, we find out when a contractor is sitting on site w/ a crane, yelling at me on the phone, asking where the hell the shipment is. The damn crane is costing $150.00 / hour for fcuk sakes Dude!

At the end of every work day, I am fully spent. Exhausted. Doesn't matter if I've been in the office all day, on a site, or a bit of both. My mind is fried, and I'm physically spent.

So, you go ahead, and keep living in your little utopia where you feel that your "hard work" pushing and moving things around is of greater importance than the decision makers, deal breakers, and money makers "wearing a tie, sitting at a computer, and pushing a pen around". Give your head a shake kid. You are what we call “overhead”. You have work because people like me create it for you.

 

[Backline16]

So, you go ahead, and keep living in your little utopia where you feel that your "hard work" pushing and moving things around is of greater importance than the decision makers, deal breakers, and money makers "wearing a tie, sitting at a computer, and pushing a pen around". Give your head a shake kid. You are what we call “overhead”. You have work because people like me create it for you.

I'm glad it's you and not me... I would make a terrible technical salesman.

decision makers, deal breakers, and money makers

listen to yourself. How important you must be.

You are what we call "overhead"

... You are what I call, missing the point. Condecending elitist.

You have work because people like me create it for you.

Fundemental disagreement here. You create nothing. An artist creates, you are a middle man. You have a position that enables money to be made. Every transaction you oversee insures money funnels up the chain, stopping at every step for the appropriate amount of profit to be skimmed off, before ending up in pockets of the ruling class. You are a pawn, just like me... the difference is I know it, and you are deluding youself. My work is not 'created' by people like you, my work is created by people who shop at Wal-Mart and Canadian Tire... supply and demand is usually the first lesson taught at business school. (BS, I have never been to business school). And people only shop at those stores because they are too poor, and too hungry to be more discerning with thier hard earned dollars (saving small business?). And too tired at the end of the day to fight the global corperate juggernaut.

WAKE UP!!! You and I are cogs in a machine we do not control. Drones and monkeys sitting in piles of our own shite, scatching and clawing for scraps with our boots on faces of the people with less than ourselves. I may not have gone to University, but I read philosophy.

Utopia!!! Cut yourself from the herd, and take a look around you. Look up and see the chemtrails lacing the sky. Understand the Scalar energy weapons boiling away natural clouds and manipulating weather. Realize that there are wars being fought in countries by Canadians where disaster capitalism is the rule of law, and profits from these war torn regions fund the escalation of further wars in other parts of the world. Left, right... it's all the same global agenda of robbing people, and then killing them.

 

[Dude]

Again, you support your arguments very well, but I think it is safe to say that fundamentally we completely disagree.

WAKE UP!!! You and I are cogs in a machine we do not control.

I know this much: I don't fee controlled at all, and I know I can adapt to most situations and survive just fine. I do what I do because I have choice, not because I feel "stepped on by the man". Or society. Or both.

It is a difference in mentality, and I don't look to other people and blame them for my problems. Instead, I just solve the problem.

And that seems to be the biggest difference between those in favor of unions, and those opposed. We're all cogs or components in this society- you just need to know what part you are, and if you don't like the part you are, become a different part.

 

[Backline16]

Again, you support your arguments very well, but I think it is safe to say that fundamentally we completely disagree.

Agreed. I think the same of you Dude... Thanks for the tangent. Now if you don't mind... I am going to proceed back to the Div. 2 forum and call you a homo.

 

[canuckboy]

That was a very interesting exchange.

Dude what you should do is open a couple of history books to see how our society has changed. There has been no other time in human history than right now, when such a large percentage of the population has shared in a societies wealth. A very important reason for that is the creation of Unions.

Someone mentioned how at no time were workers in the Western World treated like they are now in Honduras. Anyone that paid attention in History class would know that workers during the Industrial Revolution were treated worse than sweatshop workers today.

As a History major these arguments are crazy as the facts are easily availablle. The French Revolution, the Continental Revolutions in Prussia/Austira/ Italy in 1848, the Russian Revolution of 1917, all brought about because the "guys that move around boxes" had enough.

"People like you" will always make more than "people like me". That's fine with me. I accept that. I know I could do a job like yours if I wanted to. But my family is far more important to me. Just remember, you will always make that 15 or 20 percent more, but it's 15 to 20 percent more than my wage. It's the workers that set the wage scale. It's in your best interest for me to make more, then you will make more. Do you really think that if every Longshoreman, Safeway Clerk, Gargage Collector made minimum wage your wage would be where it is today? Economics is not a zero sum game.

The rights we have in our society, like it or not, were brought about through violence by the working class, nothing has been given in our society, its been paid for in blood.

Yes I realize I sound like Leon Trotsky's cousin. It's funny that when one takes the time to actually look at how this society got to where it is, we start sounding the same.

Um Backline what the **** is a scalar energy weapon?

 

[Dude]

"People like you" will always make more than "people like me".

That's the second uneducated dig from one of you guys. "Elitist" was the other.

My top two guys will both pay a lot more in personal taxes than I will this year. My company will pay very little in corporate taxes. Why? I've invested my cash and financed the rest in order to invest more capital into the business- to grow it. I think this year I'll take home less than anytime in the last 5, and next year I'll probably keep it lean, too. All because I'm keeping money in the business.

I'm not bitching- it is a choice I make- just saying that this is the reality of taking a risk. I am calculating out the reward later. In eight years from now, I plan to have a much different problem with my taxes, and hopefully the solution will be to invest more into growing this business, or maybe a different one.

As I said, some are OK with low risk comfort. But, I want to build smething that my kids can continue to build when I'm ready to retire, and I want to build something that will pay me handsomly past 40. To do that, my performers need to be paid well, but they'll need to earn it.

So, suffice to say, there is a huge difference in attitude between your kind and mine. Yours clearly feel it is a devine right to be paid well above market levels for what you actually do, seemingly indifferent to how hard you work, or how well you've done your job. That somehow being human gives you this right. My kind feel that those who want to earn more should based on their results, and those results are often the product of hard work, sacrifice, and risk.

 

[Dude]

BTW Canuckboy: my children are easily my highest priority. You and I just have completely different ideas about how best to provide for them. But, there is a common insinuation from your side that business owners like me are greedy, and unsympathetic to workers. Complete bullshit. Every decision I make can potentially affect 5 other families. You want pressure? That’s pressure…and I’m not even a medium or big business. I know I don’t take it lightly, and I know of several mentors in my business who also take if very seriously that their employees are secure.

Your history lesson is completely moot in this day and age. Very few trades and professions these days in Canada are bettered by the existence of a union. The unions, if anything, screw up the natural order of the economy, and very nearly crippled ours in BC not such a long time ago.

 

[Mr. Rempa]

You know Dude...

...I really wish Gordon Campbell call for election and the NDP win it...

We all know exactly what will happen to you...maybe Alberta? Bermuda?

Mr. Rempa

 

[Dude]

If you need to know...I'd sell or close up shop, and buy into a business in Sun Peaks; ski bum in winter, bike bum in summer. Kids would be on the ski team, etc.

Or, yeah...Bremuda sounds good. Sub ski bum w/ surf bum. No problem.

Hell, France would be a great place to live. Samoens, Alps. Bread & Breakfast. I could buy a 6 room 100 year old challet there for the cost of my house here. Yes, I've checked it out.

Again, typical union mentality. Companies close shop, economy goes in the shitter, revenues to support social programs die up, we saddle our youth w/ massive debt...but hey, whatever is good for you, right? I'm sure your union will help you.

Is this what you meant by big picture, BL? Seems he gets it...

 

[Bronco]

I work for the largest 3rd party logistics operation in BC.

They won't be for very long, given they have promoted someone into management who hasn't grasped grammar and spelling of the English language yet.

 

[Dude]

Gotta say Bronco, when I saw you had replied, I expected something way stronger than the weak-sauce "grammar" piss take. Especially when you read his stuff, it's pretty clear he's well able to articulate himself quite well with writing.