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World Cup Finals:

Dude

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Perhaps the call was made for the penalty not for intention but because the ball hit the hand and went out of bound, which took away a scoring chance and the balls opportunity to continue into the box. Never less it was an exciting final and Croatia was certainly the better team in that first half hour, deserving much better. Loved watching Mbappe fly, kid is a pleasure to watch. That was a fantastic tournament. 2 years to Euro.

Well that makes no sense, but seems like you understand this as well as I do, and I most certainly do not. If it is "ball-to-hand", then the hand basically becomes like any other body part, doesn't matter where it goes.

@Walks ? Paging Walks?

I really enjoyed the tourney this year, loved having footy on in the background at any given time, speculating, and simply watching the magic these guys can produce. When Croatia smashed Argentina, I became a real fan, because they did it with style and open play.
 

mtkb

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interesting all the different perspectives on the VAR call... I see it as a clear hand to ball and worthy of the VAR review and penalty...
 

bulljive

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I see you as an idiot. Honestly don’t get that interpretation. Every other corner you could call a PK on a VAR review for holding/pushing, obstruction. That wasn’t a clear intentional handball, it’s awkward but he’s jumping and trying to react to a ball very quickly. I don’t expect hands tucked to his body. If the ref calls it live then I accept that it’s not clear enough to overturn it. To decide that needs to be a PK and essentially change the shape of the game, not long after a mistake that lead to the first goal ? How you make that call in the World Cup final. Horrific call.
 

Yoda

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I honestly thought he moved his hand to the ball as well. Follows the ball with his eyes, drops his arm, but not both, just the one the ball is heading towards. I haven’t watched numerous replays, just the ones during the live game. Can anyone find a video of the incident?
I’d like to see it again.
 

akslop

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akslop

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IMO it Could go either way. The problem is the rule not being clear enough and thus leaving the interpretation based on opinion of the individual deciding it.

Paging @Walks
 

Dude

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...this is maybe the problem with VAR, it allows for slow motion, and in slow motion, you can now "see" certain movements you didn't see before. Watching it in real time, it happens so fast that I still see it as ball-to-hand. In slow motion, I see it as the player naturally turning his body and his hand does come down as consequence. The point being, it needs to be clear and obvious, and I really don't think it is, especially when you watch at real speed, not a slowed down speed.

The point is, it still creates a lot of debate. Had it not been called, and had Croatia gone on to win, the French would for sure be replaying this one in slow motion for the world to see how THEY got jobbed out of a call.

We aren't in the position of the ref, and I guess in his position, he saw something in that replay he didn't have the benefit of seeing real time...and that is the difference here.

For me, I'd like it if they took it back, and made VAR sort of like the NFL challenge rule. You get one per match, that's all, in the interest of speeding up play...and you can call for VAR at any time to dispute any call. Early in a match, would a manager "throw a flag"?
 

akslop

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Get rid of the VAR. Not a fan. Soccer and sport in general is fine with out it as proven through history. The element of human error is natural and belongs as part of the game. Human error occurs through out the game already. As for The final had there not been VAR and Croatia went on to win I'd imagine the French would contempt, okay and live with the decision. They have been notorious for being on the wrong side of out comes due to the human element error through out their history in War.
 

Canucks4Ever

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Correct @Dude "scoring chance" is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is intent. Unfortunately, without being a mind reader, that is always going to be up to interpretation. This one has split opinion and, as you mention, had it not been overturned, I am sure the French would be outraged.

Honestly, the more replays I look at the more I am starting to see a deliberate, though perhaps reflex, motion with the hand/arm. As the ball clears Matuidi, the left arm does seem to speed up and intentionally block the flight of the ball. Give me another hundred looks at it and maybe I'll sway back the other way.

Point is, we survived a hundred plus years letting these calls stand as made, so I am not convinced that this is what VAR is for. VAR is for those incidents that are blatant and match changing that somehow got missed. The moments that leave you nearly yelling at the TV "how can they let this happen!" It is not intended to be a secondary review to discuss whether something was or was not a foul, etc. or for referees to decide to take a second look and consider the call again. That only serves to slow the game down as it did on Sunday and, after all of it, you still end up in the same place with opinions split down the middle. Hopefully FIFA uses this as a teaching point to say here's an example of what we don't want this being used for, let the referee make the call as always.

Again, I thought Howard Webb made an astute point about the use of VAR. It's purpose is not to determine was the referee right in his call. Maybe he was maybe he wasn't, there are always shades of grey. Their job is to intervene if the referee was definitely wrong. Was it right not to give a penalty on Sunday? Clearly there are arguments on both sides. However, was it definitely wrong? No.
 

Yoda

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Honestly, the more replays I look at the more I am starting to see a deliberate, though perhaps reflex, motion with the hand/arm. As the ball clears Matuidi, the left arm does seem to speed up and intentionally block the flight of the ball. Give me another hundred looks at it and maybe I'll sway back the other way.

This was my thought on the play exactly.

We can all agree though that VAR has really fixed nothing. The intent is good but not worked out well. At this point, Hockey’s idea of 2 refs would be better.
 

Canucks4Ever

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I think the mistake is to think that VAR is going to "fix" these moments. As long as the handball is written the way it is there this situation will continue to occur.

VAR is for those moments when the striker is blatantly offside but the linesman was looking at something else at the crucial moment. Or for when a player is hauled down on a breakaway but the referee thought the contact was outside the box, not inside, etc. This is not a video "review", hockey or American football style, it is solely another set of eyes to catch something major and obvious that gets missed. It's a big learning curve for FIFA and the referees but hopefully by the next WC we are all up to speed and it is seamless. If you look it has been the same struggle in MLS with video review interfering far too often and on far too subjective calls. I'll admit I do not follow the league incredibly closely, but it would seem to me that VAR is less and less of a talking point.
 

Dude

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When technology actually doesn't improve the game, the use of it needs to be reviewed. I'd say use of VAR and it improving the game is completely inconclusive right now. I feel it needs to go back to the drawing board.
 

freddy

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The new approach to VAR on off side definitely changes the game. The linesman lets an offside continue - if they score, they review it. But, if they don't score, the game has changed without review with a likely outcome being a corner kick. It does make for more goals and in soccer, I suppose that is a good thing. But, it definitely changes strategy.
 

Yoda

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Why can’t refs and VAR officials be mic’d up like in rugby. That way the viewer can hear what they discuss and how they determine the call.

Would that fix anything? We’d still have differing opinions on how plays were interpreted and we’d still be discussing it.
 

forest1979

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I enjoyed the tournament and if betting in real money would now be homeless!! with regard VAR still not sure, even at local level you know what some refs will call and others will not. At this level I think you are taking away a lot of talking points and I think we all like to discuss moments in the game..good, or bad calls. Can see Dudes point, one challenge per side, any decision, any time......hate the idea of 2 refs....in many competitions we already have ref, 2 assistants, 4th official, and 2 others behind goal...and it still does not work. I have obviously never reffed at this level but let me say that when you do a senior prov. game it does create a bit of pressure and at the end you know if you have done good or bad.Think that basically the officials are the 3rd team on the field and I like it that way......if VAR goes too far an official should never have a bad game because every important call will be reviewed and put right. For my 2 cents I would sooner they sort out this injury thing, players rolling around because the ball has hit them...OK we will stop play, you leave the field for 2 minutes, bet you there up and running within seconds.....oh. and enjoyed the banter on here, CHEERS EVERYONE!!
 

mtkb

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I see you as an idiot. Honestly don’t get that interpretation. Every other corner you could call a PK on a VAR review for holding/pushing, obstruction. That wasn’t a clear intentional handball, it’s awkward but he’s jumping and trying to react to a ball very quickly. I don’t expect hands tucked to his body. If the ref calls it live then I accept that it’s not clear enough to overturn it. To decide that needs to be a PK and essentially change the shape of the game, not long after a mistake that lead to the first goal ? How you make that call in the World Cup final. Horrific call.

Well then, maybe explain to me what he's doing with his hand as he looks directly down? Perhaps a fcuking jumping jack? He's not jumping, he's on the way back down. Stop making shite up and admit you got it wrong; at least that way you'll only look like half a donkey...
 

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