Premier [VMSL Premier] Predictions, Results & Banter 2014/2015

[club_i_champ]

Does anyone in TTP land know if the PPD round of fixtures scheduled for the DEC 19/20 weekend will now be the opening fixtures for the new year, or does the league campaign continue in the order scheduled by the league?

 

[dezza]

Does anyone in TTP land know if the PPD round of fixtures scheduled for the DEC 19/20 weekend will now be the opening fixtures for the new year, or does the league campaign continue in the order scheduled by the league?

Pretty sure the scheduled matches will be played on the listed dates as all the field bookings would be done. They'll just move the PPD games to the end of the season.

 

[reedie]

has this been the most boring premier league campaign to date? no parody in the league, i think the standing are the same as they were in week 4. the discussion on TTP has to be at an all time low. maybe too many 19 year olds wearing mittens and not enough team coolers being devoured?

something has to give.

Outkast, your use of the word "parody" is quite ironic to me.

In reality, the "parity" of the league has never been more apparent. Although there are 2 teams clearly out in front of the table, any team can beat another on a given day in this league. As well, there are about 7 of the 12 teams that, at the moment, have to be quite concerned about relegation in 2015. That's going to make for some very exciting games in the new year.

The real "parody" is the league itself. It is no longer verified but rather a "parody" account of what it once was. And if that sounds like an oldtimer with sour grapes having a moan about yesteryear, so be it.

That's not to say the players haven't improved over the years because they have...and big time, in my opinion. You watch some of the skill that is put on display nowadays in the VMSL Premier League and you just shake your head in disbelief. The players are much more talented today than they were years ago when I played. There is no disputing that whatsoever.

However, the league is nothing like it used to be in terms of loyalty, commitment, and providing players with a quality social atmosphere. Countless players move from team to team each season...training session attendance and game day rosters change from day to day never mind week to week...and gone are the days when 20 guys arrived to every single game with their shower kit and a freshly pressed shirt, knowing full well they were going to have a dinger that night, regardless of how the game went. And then of course once the Internet came along a lot of them would stagger by TTP at 4am or later the next day to rehash all of it and get ready for next weekend's game and bash. And you know what, it was pretty fcuking fun. That, and you certainly felt like you were a part of something special. Yes, some teams still have some of this to a degree but it's nothing like it was back in the day....back in the day of previous incarnations of Norvan, Firemen, Croatia, Metro Ford, Pegasus, and yes, even bloody Westside.

And I guess that's the big difference today. The teams in the league don't really seem like any of those retro clubs but more so like temporary landing pads for local players who want to keep playing at a high level, typically once they have exhausted all of their other options. And it seems like all of the extra curricular things a true soccer club can offer don't matter as much to these players any more. Don't get me wrong, the level of competition is still fierce and I have no doubt the players want to win just as badly as they always have whenever they take the field...but maybe some of it is for different reasons today.

But as a wise man once said, it is what it is.

Happy New Year.

 

[Regs]

Nicely said.

Especially about TTP

16 years ago today, the infamous peg forums opened which through 3 software incarnations and domain name changes is what we call TTP today.

~Regsheem.

 

[RL RCD]

However, the league is nothing like it used to be in terms of loyalty, commitment, and providing players with a quality social atmosphere. Countless players move from team to team each season...training session attendance and game day rosters change from day to day never mind week to week...and gone are the days when 20 guys arrived to every single game with their shower kit and a freshly pressed shirt... Happy New Year.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it today:

1) The league MUST limit the number of registered players during the season to no more than 25. This would (to some degree) prevent poachers around the league handing out a "signing fee" to the players from their competition. This would also clearly be a nightmare for bad managers who run their clubs poorly, they would be exposed; right now, they are hiding their incompetence behind a fact they can always sign another player, pay a fee for him, and there you go. VMSL has a record so why don't VMSL executives post openly (on a web site) how many players each team has registered (and goes through every season). There are teams that regularly, season after season, register around 50 players, even more!!!??? Of course, the league is quite about that because each registered player means more money in the league's bank account.

2) We all pay taxes in this country yet we close our eyes (and cover ears) when we hear (and even know) that some poachers hand out $1,000 or more as a signing bonus to some players and/or paying $200 per goal. I know CRA is after those who evade taxes worth millions but, still, cash is ruining the league and is direct cause for all that you mentioned so all those "activities" and "cash stories" should be, at least, reported to CRA and see if it raises any interest over there. If any league is considered an amateur league then there is no room for those who get paid to play in that league - that is very simple. Having said that, please, do not think I have something against guys who make money playing soccer but then we cannot call it an amateur league and certainly those who pay players to play should be responsible with withholding income taxes and remitting to CRA.

3) Some big clubs are acting like big bullies out there. It is not anymore about providing a great soccer experience to hundreds/thousands of kids, teaching them some soccer and social skills, and how to live a healthy life - it has become money grab policy, finding ways to hire and pay some obscene amounts of money to friends, even relatives, like they are Canadian soccer saviours! At the same time, we all know how high is Canadian national team ranked on FIFA list. Those big clubs are literally trying to ruin all small clubs around them and it is not anymore a fierce competition on the field; it is a ridiculous fight to register more an more players and collect more registration fees.

4) BCSA is changing system every 3-4 years to hide its incompetence and poor results.

Happy New Year!

 

[Sir M]

I agree. But don't bother with the CRA angle.

For context, there are couple hundred thousand dollars of illegal drugs sold in downtown Vancouver every day. And the dealers last time I looked do not pay income tax.

Nor do the suppliers in case there is any kind of a nexus here.

PS guess who funds all of this?

 

[Ballbaby]

Outkast, your use of the word "parody" is quite ironic to me.

In reality, the "parity" of the league has never been more apparent. Although there are 2 teams clearly out in front of the table, any team can beat another on a given day in this league. As well, there are about 7 of the 12 teams that, at the moment, have to be quite concerned about relegation in 2015. That's going to make for some very exciting games in the new year.

The real "parody" is the league itself. It is no longer verified but rather a "parody" account of what it once was. And if that sounds like an oldtimer with sour grapes having a moan about yesteryear, so be it.

That's not to say the players haven't improved over the years because they have...and big time, in my opinion. You watch some of the skill that is put on display nowadays in the VMSL Premier League and you just shake your head in disbelief. The players are much more talented today than they were years ago when I played. There is no disputing that whatsoever.

However, the league is nothing like it used to be in terms of loyalty, commitment, and providing players with a quality social atmosphere. Countless players move from team to team each season...training session attendance and game day rosters change from day to day never mind week to week...and gone are the days when 20 guys arrived to every single game with their shower kit and a freshly pressed shirt, knowing full well they were going to have a dinger that night, regardless of how the game went. And then of course once the Internet came along a lot of them would stagger by TTP at 4am or later the next day to rehash all of it and get ready for next weekend's game and bash. And you know what, it was pretty fcuking fun. That, and you certainly felt like you were a part of something special. Yes, some teams still have some of this to a degree but it's nothing like it was back in the day....back in the day of previous incarnations of Norvan, Firemen, Croatia, Metro Ford, Pegasus, and yes, even bloody Westside.

And I guess that's the big difference today. The teams in the league don't really seem like any of those retro clubs but more so like temporary landing pads for local players who want to keep playing at a high level, typically once they have exhausted all of their other options. And it seems like all of the extra curricular things a true soccer club can offer don't matter as much to these players any more. Don't get me wrong, the level of competition is still fierce and I have no doubt the players want to win just as badly as they always have whenever they take the field...but maybe some of it is for different reasons today.

But as a wise man once said, it is what it is.

Happy New Year.

Very well stated Reedie!

 

[outkast]

Does it even matter who gets relegated? Those players will just find another team to play for that hasn't been relegated.

The league is a joke, but hey, at least the provincial champion comes from the VMSL.

Sorry my grammar isn't up to snuff, Reedie. Please let me know if this post is incorrect in any way.

 

[club_i_champ]

Does it even matter who gets relegated?

Does it matter who gets promoted?

It HAS to me! Since I've ever been apart of PROPER Amateur Mens Football....Club Ireland 2000

That is just my opinion. As silly as it may be, I DO think I speak for a few strong competitors over the years...

Frankly, regardless of the fixture, bring on the 'paid player'

 

[Canucks4Ever]

Outkast, your use of the word "parody" is quite ironic to me.

However, the league is nothing like it used to be in terms of loyalty, commitment, and providing players with a quality social atmosphere. Countless players move from team to team each season...training session attendance and game day rosters change from day to day never mind week to week...and gone are the days when 20 guys arrived to every single game with their shower kit and a freshly pressed shirt, knowing full well they were going to have a dinger that night, regardless of how the game went. And then of course once the Internet came along a lot of them would stagger by TTP at 4am or later the next day to rehash all of it and get ready for next weekend's game and bash. And you know what, it was pretty fcuking fun. That, and you certainly felt like you were a part of something special. Yes, some teams still have some of this to a degree but it's nothing like it was back in the day....back in the day of previous incarnations of Norvan, Firemen, Croatia, Metro Ford, Pegasus, and yes, even bloody Westside.

And I guess that's the big difference today. The teams in the league don't really seem like any of those retro clubs but more so like temporary landing pads for local players who want to keep playing at a high level, typically once they have exhausted all of their other options. And it seems like all of the extra curricular things a true soccer club can offer don't matter as much to these players any more. Don't get me wrong, the level of competition is still fierce and I have no doubt the players want to win just as badly as they always have whenever they take the field...but maybe some of it is for different reasons today.

But as a wise man once said, it is what it is.

Happy New Year.

Well I'll be damned...someone finally got the VMSL forum riled up. Honestly, it has been a ghost town here lately and that's too bad. I haven't had a chance to see as many games this year as I did last year, but I feel like even if I did, nobody wants to talk about it anyway.

I do note that Twitter is slightly more active as a sounding board for teams these days. But still TTP game reports were always a more entertaining read (mostly cause 6-8 guys would immediately disagree with and discount the posted series of events).

Gotta say reedie I think you hit the nail on the head. I find players these days just settle in the VMSL when they have nowhere else to go (college, professional, etc.). Obviously in a culture like that you have guys looking for two things: a winning team and playing time. Now that's totally fair, but the problem (or perhaps just difference from previous years) that creates is that no one wants to build a winning team or earn their playing time.

There's not a lot of guys left out there playing for the crest. I'm sure you could ask your Norvan and Westside "buddies" about what happens when you get relegated. Players have no desire to stick around, they would rather win now. Not sure whether that is right or wrong, it's just reality. Certainly in professional football players jump ship after relegation as a manner of course, after all you're only in the prime of your career once.

The world is a smaller place now. Driving from Burnaby to West Van to play for a "winning team" isn't as outlandish an idea as it was in the 90s. It used to be that everyone on a team were friends who played soccer together. Now is seems that they play soccer together and might become friends.

So the end result is a highly talented, competitive league bereft of rivalries and passion. Whether that is better or worse depends on the lens through which you are looking at it, but it's certainly a helluva lot different, there's no question about that.

 

[GhostRider]

Long-time organizer for Croatia here. Gonna keep the discussion going. Many insightful comments being made.

RE: The teams in the league ... temporary landing pads for local players
IMHO the root of the issue is the mid-season influx of college/university players. Once those players arrive the whole league looks different. It's not healthy on many levels. A simple rule that would bring stability to the league is to disallow those players from university/college to play in the VMSL.

RE: competitive league bereft of rivalries and passion. Whether that is better or worse depends on the lens through which you are looking at it
Croatia has been doing some soul searching around this topic for the last few years. What is our measurement of success? Winning the Cup has been a blessing because we always assumed winning cups = success. But our supporter attendance for league games has dwindled to a few die-hard fans. We know the interest is there in our community because we saw it during the cup run. But is a soccer club or team truly successful if there is nobody there to see your league games?

My question is what is the measure of success for the league? (specifically Premier) How do other clubs measure success? I'd like to hear from other clubs if they are willing to share.

 

[Sir M]

You could also argue that it is not the college kids, but rather the kids that are not dedicated, smart enough, or just don't feel like going to school or legitimately working and want to pay for their lifestyle. And some money from certain VMSL teams is one way to supplement income. I just wonder where they will find themselves in 20 years from now.

 

[Canucks4Ever]

GhostRider:

Agreed, totally different landscape once the college players arrive in December. Not sure if banning them is the answer as everybody wants to play all year, but it is something to discuss.

Your point on attendance is bang on though. I hear tell of these great sidelines in the 80s (before my time) of a few hundred supporters at VMSL games. Nowadays if attendance hits double digits it must be a special occasion. I think one of the major contributors is the law around alcohol consumption. Teams used to run beer coolers on the sidelines and everyone just sort of looked the other way. Now enforcement is much stiffer regarding teams selling alcohol, consuming alcohol and of course driving after having a drink. Now I'm not saying guys should be allowed to get pissed up and stagger to their cars just because its a Sunday at the pitch, but I think that stiffer stance on casual beers at the park has contributed negatively to the social atmosphere.

I also think the geography and scheduling play a major part. There's not too many casual supporters willing to leg it from the North Shore to Surrey just to support their local amateur club. Not too mention a look at the VMSL schedule shows 4 premier league games 8pm and later on a Friday night, and this is the norm. Those two things, combined with the fact that there is more to do in the city on a weekend or watch on TV at home, means people have better things to do I guess.

Just while we are piling on here, it's not like the league promotes its self in anyway. When was the last time anyone saw anything in the Vancouver papers about the VMSL? Not even a shout out to Croatia on winning the Provincial cup. I can remember The Province covering the Provincials and Nationals back in the 90s, larger news pool these days I suppose. Certainly some marketing on the part of the league couldn't hurt in terms of drumming up interest. Fans are the ones that truly make the rivalries.

Last thing to mention is it's not like we are operating in a vacuum here. Adult amateur leagues are struggling with interest all over (especially in the summer). Much of it is cash related. Grass fields are in awful condition because the cities (for the most part) do not maintain them. Depending on how much of a conspiracy theorist you are will determine to what extent you believe this is a coincidence. Grass fields are expensive to maintain so turf is being installed because it requires less maintenance, but has a high cost up front. Not maintaining the grass fields works two-fold by saving the city maintenance funds and forcing teams onto turf thereby helping to recover the initial costs. Adult teams are the ones that suffer because youth leagues have a massive resource pool to draw from (PARENTS!- because paying an extra $50 annually is still cheaper than putting little Timmy in hockey) and if we don't pay for the turf time that f*cking Frisbee league is waiting in the wings to swoop in. Let's not forget that referee fees continue to climb, and while I understand we need to entice people into the role the idea that it costs $160+ per game to three guys who half of the time demonstrate their lack of qualifications is laughable.

The result is that the cost to operate an adult amateur soccer team continues to climb while the sources of funds continue to diminish. Based on some of the conversations I have had this year with managers in the league it is in the neighbourhood of $250 hard costs per player for the winter season and around $100 per player in the summer. God forbid you ask players to pay their share of the dues because you will lose them to one of these murky "teams that pay their players" and sponsors are rightly becoming difficult to find because their potential exposure continues to shrink (who wants to advertise to the 10 fans at a VMSL game?).

So we arrive back at the have and have not teams in terms of funding. Clubs with youth programs and sponsors vs. stand alone clubs with history in the VMSL (and yes the lines become blurred with teams like Metro Ford, etc.) That's what annoys me the most when we talk about teams paying players etc., really you are hurting the entire league because you shrink the pot for everyone else. Judging by many of the comments I am reading here we are approaching a tipping point, something is going to have to give.

Hmm...that turned into more of a rant than I had initially anticipated...lol

 

[RL RCD]

GhostRider and Canucks4Ever,

Great points, both of you!

GhostRider,

I absolutely agree with you re college/university players. I have always asked around what was the purpose of allowing a few (or several) college/university players to play for VMSL premier team when some college/university coaches insist that their players during college/university off-season can play ONLY for certain teams and do not allow their players to play anymore when their practices start! Yes, as a matter of fact, this is exactly what happens.

Is it a coincidence that some college/university players easily get a spot on certain teams while, at the same time, some players from the same teams/clubs much easier get a spot (even scholarships) on the college/university team! Yes, sounds to me as one of those "friendly deals" which do nothing good because such behavior and actions create a bad atmosphere around the club/team since suddenly (because of an influx of college/university players in November) some really good and devoted players get pushed aside due to politics although they may have been better soccer players than those college/university players.

Anyway, I'll always fully support a (non-existing yet) full ban for college/university players to play in VMSL as long as their coaches ban them from playing in VMSL even during college/university season. That is only fair; anything else is a mockery!

Re attendance: Yes, it is a sad affair to come to watch a Premier League game and see 5-10 people in attendance but this is partially exactly due to everything being said here. Still remember rivalry between Croatia and Serbia when the fans even had to pay for a ticket to watch the game (the last one, several years ago, if I remember in Coquitlam when people even from Abbotsford drove to watch that game). So, yes, rivalries are extremely important and rivalries now have been gone in many, many cases because there is no, first of all, a devotion (by a player) to the team/club because of all we mentioned here (poachers, cash circulating around, college/university players pushing down devoted players although in many cases those devoted players are even better players than those newcomers, etc.).

By the way, I believe, that any of those so-called ethnic clubs (including yours) will not be that interesting to their ethnic community if the number of "foreigners" playing for the club is significant, close to, or exceeds the number of ethnic players. Is that maybe what is happening to Croatia or majority of your players are still Croats?

Canucks4Ever,

You are absolutely right that the league executives do not do anything to promote the league. The league executives even let poachers and leeches to ruin the league by allowing them to register ridiculous number of players during the season, poaching the players right after the game, etc.

Also, paying $160/game to referees is way, way too much for numerous Premier/Division 1 teams. At the same time, the league imposes fines to clubs/teams for their fans behavior which then also creates a conflict between the club and fans. Some fans stopped attending games because they cannot anymore even say anything loudly without immediate attention by a head referee (who, by the way, screwed up royally several times during the game), then the club manager who must react too in order to avoid a fine by the league, etc. Another reason why so many fans stay at home and watch TV instead.

With so many factors pointed out here it should not be a surprise why almost no one watches VMSL games anymore.

 

[Bronco]

All of the points many have raised above are valid, but I think Reedie hit the nail on the head. There is no longer any player loyalty, or identification in terms of club. Back in the day you knew what you got. Firemen were the Philadelphia Flyers of the 70's....hard as rocks, kick you all over the park good Canadian kids. Croatia/Columbus were technically sound and superior, extremely undisciplined, and mentally fragile, but knew how to win. Pegasus, the proverbial melting pot that was technical and consistent. Westside, a bunch of UBC rich kids who were as good a "team" as you could find. Metro-Ford, generally hated for goonery, and a slightly lesser evil than Firemen.

Point being, Clubs had an identity. Players had loyalty to the club, and more importantly the game. Walked into a Croatia A dressing room 2 years ago after a 4-1 loss and 14 of the 16 players were looking at their cell phones and texting and or having a laugh. Wouldn't have happened "back in the day".

Tipping point indeed......

 

[knvb]

To @Bronco point... you didn't dare leave your team for another, especially a side like frieman or metro ford for fear of being kicked up a down the park for as long as you could last and then twice more in the parking lot.

...ahh the good old days. Men were men and punters got punted... or was that chundered? I always get them confused.

 

[GhostRider]

RE: ethnic clubs (including yours) will not be that interesting to their ethnic community if the number of "foreigners" playing for the club is significant
Historically (since the late 60's) that hasn't been an issue. It has always been about winning. For most of the club history, including today, there has been significant amount of non-Croats on the roster.

RE: 14 of the 16 players were looking at their cell phones and texting and or having a laugh
Lack of leadership in the dressing room. The old breed of vets have moved on and younger guys aren't stepping up. I think this is a generational problem since I see it in the workplace too - young guys are reluctant to take on greater responsibility beyond the minimum required. Also, sometimes team harmony is in the toilet because of all the exceptions and compromises being made around missed training and playing time without merit. Hard to blame the coaches as they are trying their best in a dysfunctional system.


RE: the league executives do not do anything to promote the league
If I were an exec my reply to the clubs would be what have YOU done to promote your team? The VMSL is a large organization and there are many teams, players, fields, and refs that need coordinating. It's a big job. My guess is that at the end of the season if all games went off with only a few minor incidents then the season was considered a success according to league measures. If the clubs want fans at their games then its the clubs that need to do the heavy lifting.


RE: we are approaching a tipping point, something is going to have to give
I think so too. Premier only has a few teams with a sustainable model: allocate part of the youth registration income to operate your Premier team for the purpose of giving the youth a final destination. Other clubs have to decide if the resources (both human and financial) required to operate a team is worth it - if nobody outside of the organizers cares about the team? It will take further investment from the clubs to take things to the next level in order to get fans. And with enough fans it might pay-off. But the deck is stacked against us: very limited facilities, no political support at any level, and generational problems. Does the VMSL Premier League even have a role in the soccer community beyond the final stop for self-organized beer league teams? I dont know.

 

[ThiKu]

RE: we are approaching a tipping point, something is going to have to give
I think so too. Premier only has a few teams with a sustainable model: allocate part of the youth registration income to operate your Premier team for the purpose of giving the youth a final destination[/QUOTE]

Can't have youh teams funding premier teams as a "final destination" for the youth teams - this is because so few of those youth will be around to play for that same prem team - many of the kids moving on to different communities post-18.

 

[trece verde]

A few things come to mind:

1. VMSL's media promotion exists only on its own website. The league missed the boat on Facebook, and I'm amazed that someone actually created a Wikipedia page for them. Chappy's rag has absolutely no interest in local soccer beyond the Whitecaps, as their so-called journalists are only interested in regurgitating press releases. The Courier and other low-circulation weeklies are in the same position - no or very limited interest. Why not have Muppet broadcasts for a MOTW on Channel 4? Has anyone even tried? Individual teams can (and do) produce their own social media, but you can't do this in a vacuum.
2. Nearly all youth clubs have at least part of their operating budgets derived from gaming grants. Any adult clubs that use the same name as youth clubs have to be operated as separate financial entities, because adult sports aren't allowed to be funded this way. You also can't take advantage of bulk-booking practice times because field rentals are charged at different rates for adult and youth users. There is a huge us vs. them mindset gap that has to be overcome before we can properly develop true clubs that include kids' and adult teams.
3. The cost of officials is a necessary evil. If you don't like what you're paying for, get a reffing ticket yourself. As for the mouthpieces who feel that it's their god-given right to abuse refs and then are shocked when they get tossed from the field, damned straight that it's your club's responsibility to police them, the same way that it's the responsibility of pro clubs for dealing with the nutbars who go to their stadia.
4. The cultural shift from team focus to entitled and egocentric is just that - a cultural shift. This transcends just footy and is societal. Finding and more importantly maintaining loyalty out of this is already a challenge and is going to be an even bigger one in coming years.

 

[RL RCD]

As for the mouthpieces who feel that it's their god-given right to abuse refs and then are shocked when they get tossed from the field, damned straight that it's your club's responsibility to police them, the same way that it's the responsibility of pro clubs for dealing with the nutbars who go to their stadia.

One thing is to abuse a referee (and I was not defending that kind of behavior). Another thing is when you have a ref who stops the game at any comment from the sideline or fans, theatrically runs toward those "mouthpieces" (as you labeled all of them), insists that a guy who protested his (wrong) call(s) leaves or he will abandon the game. Again, I have seen this numerous times, totally ridiculous.

I'll be the first one to protect any ref in the case somebody tries to physically attack him (no matter how bad the call was) but to create scenes after any comment... that is just too much. One of the reasons a lot of people avoid watching the games. You literally cannot say anything without having a ref or club's official right into your face.

For a real abusers there is police who should deal with them.