VMSL Division 1 Rinos and Human Rights

[Soccer Coach]

Had Argentina won the World Cup or Copa America, I doubt the media and you would even say anything about Messi. You wouldn't be complaining that he has no connection to his teammates and to his country.

Just like you starting a thread to bash Rinos and "human rights", you are a complete fraud who speaks nonsense.

If you do not like the answer, then do not ask the question. Of course, if they would have won the World Cup and Copa America, there would be no need to look for explanations. You would not even asking the question. You asked, and you were given an answer.
The topic might seem new to you, but it has been discussed since 2010. It is obvious that Messi does not show the same effectivity in the National Team than in Barcelona.

I am trying to have a conversation in good faith with you.

 

[Soccer Coach]

On the topic of Rino's paying players, its up to them what they do. Shouldn't you be eager to play them and beat them? Wouldnt the satisfaction of beating a team of paid players be awesome? Knowing you, you would probably start a new thread on how great soccer should be played and how a 3rd world team beat a luxury team.

Its kind of like the satisfaction GN had when they won Div 2 knowing they had finished above Campo Athletico who was paying players.

Yes, we are very eager to play the new Rinos Tigers. They have a very good team with a lot of quality. It is well founded. However, I am realistic. I do not think that we would be able to beat them, nor most teams in Division 1. They will get promoted for sure.
This means that only one of Norvan, Guildford, or Bingers will get promoted. It is going to be tough for them.

I am glad that you feel satisfaction that Guru Nanak team finished first because it was well deserved given the consistency over the season. If you think that the satisfaction is because Campo was paying the players, then you have the wrong reason. You should be proud because you finished above a team which won the VMSL and Provincial Cups.

Just do not complain when Guru Nanak goes back to Division 2 because Rinos is fixing a game between their three teams.

 

[Dude]

Campo won the Imperial Cup and Premier titles? I didn't know that....

 

[bulljive]

Honestly, do you really think a
Club fixes games between two teams? I know in our club when two teams are in the same division those are the most fiercely competitive games. Players between the two teams are generally not "friends" if anything there is a little underlying nastiness in the game.

 

[Soccer Coach]

Honestly, do you really think a
Club fixes games between two teams? I know in our club when two teams are in the same division those are the most fiercely competitive games. Players between the two teams are generally not "friends" if anything there is a little underlying nastiness in the game.

I understand that the situations that you describe might arise from time to time. However, this is not the norm nor the likely outcome when a club controls two or three teams. There is a very good reason why most of the competitive amateur and professional leagues have rulings that prohibit ownership or control of more than one team in a league. We do have it for Premier. I suspect that we did not have the ruling for Division 1 because at some moment there were two sections.
Their teams are different so you will not have two fighting for promotion or relegation.

 

[cascadesoccer]

Curious on what the end game of all this is. What does fixing games at level do for you? There's no television contract worth millions of dollars or endorsement deals for promotion. It's not going to get you signed anywhere that's going to change your life. It's basically pointless (pun not intended) I guess it makes for a good thread though.

 

[Soccer Coach]

Curious on what the end game of all this is. What does fixing games at level do for you? There's no television contract worth millions of dollars or endorsement deals for promotion. It's not going to get you signed anywhere that's going to change your life. It's basically pointless (pun not intended) I guess it makes for a good thread though.

Thank you for your comment. It is appreciated. Lets assume that we follow this nihilist view. It is pointless to try to have fair competition and be concerned that a group of people might influence the results. Then, it is also pointless to have assistant referee, it does not matter if the offside is called correctly; then it is also pointless that we should worry about points, and keeping track of the goals. If we keep going we this line of thought. Then we should all just go and get together and play soccer and do not worry about uniforms, and laws, and offsides, and maximum number of substitutions, etc.

However, this is not the point of the league. We are paying money to assistant referees, referees, and a person to keep track of points and goals. We are following laws and rules and try to keep things fair. Having three teams controlled by a club, it is simply not fair to the rest of the players in the league. It is not the monetary value, but the principle of fair competition.

 

[akslop]

Go find another league?

Thank you for your comment. It is appreciated. Lets assume that we follow this nihilist view. It is pointless to try to have fair competition and be concerned that a group of people might influence the results. Then, it is also pointless to have assistant referee, it does not matter if the offside is called correctly; then it is also pointless that we should worry about points, and keeping track of the goals. If we keep going we this line of thought. Then we should all just go and get together and play soccer and do not worry about uniforms, and laws, and offsides, and maximum number of substitutions, etc.

However, this is not the point of the league. We are paying money to assistant referees, referees, and a person to keep track of points and goals. We are following laws and rules and try to keep things fair. Having three teams controlled by a club, it is simply not fair to the rest of the players in the league. It is not the monetary value, but the principle of fair competition.

 

[cascadesoccer]

There are tons of divisions in multiple leagues with multiple teams from the same club in them. I have never heard of a fixing issue. Again why would a club in amature soccer fix games when it gets them no where or nothing but 3 points. Does a birth in the "B" provincials get you a college scholarship or a new car? It's almost comical that people would spend their time to orchestrate these events. It's like paying for porn when you can stream or download it and get the same result. Probably less viruses in match fixing though.

 

[Soccer Coach]

There are tons of divisions in multiple leagues with multiple teams from the same club in them. I have never heard of a fixing issue. Again why would a club in amature soccer fix games when it gets them no where or nothing but 3 points. Does a birth in the "B" provincials get you a college scholarship or a new car? It's almost comical that people would spend their time to orchestrate these events. It's like paying for porn when you can stream or download it and get the same result. Probably less viruses in match fixing though.

Thank you for the reply. Yes, you are right. In the surface, it is only three points. However, given how tight the competition has been in the VMSL, three points is a lot. In the last season even 1 point has decided the promotion/relegation battles for Division 1, 2, and 3. In some cases, the relegation and promotion battles have been forced to additional extra games.

Yes, I understand that many other leagues are very casual. The VMSL has become the strongest league in the area due because they follow correctly the small details. They have a ruling of only one club for premier, which is very appropriate.

We need the same for Division 1 now.

 

[Dude]

That's no different than the other league, as far as I know. All Premier divisions restrict the top table to one club team each.

Again, you are showing how naive you really are about the local leagues and level of play- especially when you keep referring to you guys winning "Provincials" and the "League". Come on. Please, the B Cup? You do understand there are at least 7 more prestigious Cups in the Lower Mainland / Island, and 9 more prestigious division titles than yours?

You do understand this, don't you?

 

[Soccer Coach]

That's no different than the other league, as far as I know. All Premier divisions restrict the top table to one club team each.

Again, you are showing how naive you really are about the local leagues and level of play- especially when you keep referring to you guys winning "Provincials" and the "League". Come on. Please, the B Cup? You do understand there are at least 7 more prestigious Cups in the Lower Mainland / Island, and 9 more prestigious division titles than yours?

You do understand this, don't you?

Well. We have an interesting dilemma here. If all other leagues restrict their top division to one club, then we have evidence that other leagues understand the importance of protecting competition.
However, if all other leagues do not have this restriction, then the one who is showing naiveness of the local scene is the all opinionated and all knowledgeable Mr. Dude.

Can you show the rules that show that FVSL, Richmond Soccer League, Burnaby League, Millars League, and the like explicitly state in their rules one club per division?

 

[Soccer Coach]

Well. We have an interesting dilemma here. If all other leagues restrict their top division to one club, then we have evidence that other leagues understand the importance of protecting competition.
However, if all other leagues do not have this restriction, then the one who is showing naiveness of the local scene is the all opinionated and all knowledgeable Mr. Dude.

Can you show the rules that show that FVSL, Richmond Soccer League, Burnaby League, Millars League, and the like explicitly state in their rules one club per division?

Ps. I am purposely ignoring your personal attacks. I could respond in kind, but I do not do it.

 

[Dude]

Well. We have an interesting dilemma here. If all other leagues restrict their top division to one club, then we have evidence that other leagues understand the importance of protecting competition.
However, if all other leagues do not have this restriction, then the one who is showing naiveness of the local scene is the all opinionated and all knowledgeable Mr. Dude.

Can you show the rules that show that FVSL, Richmond Soccer League, Burnaby League, Millars League, and the like explicitly state in their rules one club per division?

I was referring only to the Premier / top divisions having a rule whereby only one team per club can compete. The only other two leagues that really matter are the FVSL and VISL (the VISL calls theirs the 1st division, but that's fine, it's their top league), because those leagues have Premier Divisions w/ teams eligible for the Provincial A Cup. RSL, BSL, Millars League (BTW, Millars League? Are you for real? Honestly...). Not that there aren't good teams or players in these leagues, but the quality is a couple of steps removed from the Premier divisions of all three top leagues.

I am going off assumption and memory. I'm not going to dig up any obscure rule or Motion passed long ago at an AGM, but, just looking at the top table standing from each reveals that there are no two clubs w/ one team:

http://www.fraservalleysoccer.com/standings.php
http://www.visl.org/organizations/278/standings

To confirm, I'll just ask @knvb about the FVSL side of things, and perhaps he has knowledge of the VISL.

You are naive because you feel that there is active collusion between two teams from the same club competing in the same division. Actually, it's not being naive, but being a shite disturber. It's also insulting to those players and managers. As pointed out, nobody gets paid here (or so you all say). Even if the odd paper bag of cash were handed out, the vast majority of players are there playing for free and pride. Same w/ managers as most aren't compensated (but you are, aren't you?). They are all giving up their free time in pursuit of the best quality of football they can reach, even though there is no compensation. You better believe, then, when squads face another from the same club, the level of animosity is amped up, because bragging rights are on the line. The players themselves are too proud to throw a game, and the managers the same.

Now, you may think you are being smart by accusing honest people of colluding where it doesn't exist, that's fine- it's in lock-step with your behavior here.

 

[bulljive]

What this really is about, again.....Soccer Coach is lining up his potential reasons for not winning the division. Tigers have a Saudi connection, along with interclub game fixing. How is soccer coach supposed to win with the odds stacked so highly against him?

He's just an honest man trying to teach us the proper way to play and develop football. Apparently without ice cream as an incentive, that's where he loses me. Dudes ice cream truck is what kept me going to soccer in my early years.

 

[Dude]

Wait a second, are you implying this is a smokescreen? This can't be?

 

[Soccer Coach]

I was referring only to the Premier / top divisions having a rule whereby only one team per club can compete. The only other two leagues that really matter are the FVSL and VISL (the VISL calls theirs the 1st division, but that's fine, it's their top league), because those leagues have Premier Divisions w/ teams eligible for the Provincial A Cup. RSL, BSL, Millars League (BTW, Millars League? Are you for real? Honestly...). Not that there aren't good teams or players in these leagues, but the quality is a couple of steps removed from the Premier divisions of all three top leagues.

I am going off assumption and memory. I'm not going to dig up any obscure rule or Motion passed long ago at an AGM, but, just looking at the top table standing from each reveals that there are no two clubs w/ one team:

http://www.fraservalleysoccer.com/standings.php
http://www.visl.org/organizations/278/standings

To confirm, I'll just ask @knvb about the FVSL side of things, and perhaps he has knowledge of the VISL.

You are naive because you feel that there is active collusion between two teams from the same club competing in the same division. Actually, it's not being naive, but being a shite disturber. It's also insulting to those players and managers. As pointed out, nobody gets paid here (or so you all say). Even if the odd paper bag of cash were handed out, the vast majority of players are there playing for free and pride. Same w/ managers as most aren't compensated (but you are, aren't you?). They are all giving up their free time in pursuit of the best quality of football they can reach, even though there is no compensation. You better believe, then, when squads face another from the same club, the level of animosity is amped up, because bragging rights are on the line. The players themselves are too proud to throw a game, and the managers the same.

Now, you may think you are being smart by accusing honest people of colluding where it doesn't exist, that's fine- it's in lock-step with your behavior here.

1)
"I am going off assumption and memory. I'm not going to dig up any obscure rule or Motion passed long ago at an AGM..."

On well, I have to give you credit for accepting that you do not have the facts and are acting on assumption. The VMSL has been very good in keeping the policy of one club per spot in Premier even though people have attempted to change it.

2)
As for the fallacy that you and others are trying to promote, which can be summarized: people are honest in our community, therefore, they will not collude. We can take it further and do not require ID check ups every game. They are fair and honest; thus we should rely on their honesty and hard work.

Of course, we do have ID check ups because even though most people are honest and well intended; when facing the prospect of relegation or missing promotion it is very probable that people will start to bring ringers. It is nothing personal. It is just simply human nature. People collude when adversity sets in.
3)
Yes, intra club animosity might exits. But this is not likely going to be the case. If one of the teams is in the verge of relegation or promotion; the teams/managers have an incentive to help the other team in the club. It is very simple. People do that through time. You help those who are closer to you when they are in need.

 

[Soccer Coach]

What this really is about, again.....Soccer Coach is lining up his potential reasons for not winning the division. Tigers have a Saudi connection, along with interclub game fixing. How is soccer coach supposed to win with the odds stacked so highly against him?

He's just an honest man trying to teach us the proper way to play and develop football. Apparently without ice cream as an incentive, that's where he loses me. Dudes ice cream truck is what kept me going to soccer in my early years.

No. I am realistic. Look at the example of Guildord. No one goes straight up to premier. The issue is the principle of fair play.
If we are trying to do things right for the sake of honest competition (i.e. referees, assistant referees, id check ups, recording points, suspensions); then we should be consequential and identify situations that will lead to lack of competition.

To take it further, what if Rinos decides to purchase a 4th team? What is stopping them? What is the limit?

I know that many of you guys are in the FVSL and actually want the FVSL to surpass the VMSL. I want the opposite. I want that the VMSL keeps growing and becoming stronger, and fair competition is an important component of the success of the VMSL.

Not this non sense of inviting teams all the way to premier and the like. Where is the fair competition in there?

 

[Rangerforever]

 

[cascadesoccer]

Where is the end game of even winning the VMSL premier league if its fixed? You waste everyone's time in all the club teams you own, on practices and games that clearly don't matter to win a trophy. No money, no promotion, nothing but bragging rights. 99% of people are going to have better things to do on their weeknights and weekends than go to their fixed amateur soccer match. Must be an Illuminati thing I just don't understand.