Teachers' Work-To-Rule

[Dude]

Wrong

Keeper: you don't get it. The social system was already brain dead and breathing on life support before Campbell got to it.

As I've said, I voted for the man, and I voted for reform. I don't have a problem with most of the layoffs in the public sector. They are the direct result of a hemorrhaging economy and a need to get our public spending in order. We need to stop the bleeding. The jobs many of these people lost are no different than the job my wife lost in December due to the fact that her company hadn't hit their sales numbers.

I still stand by my statement that teachers need to get more respect. If I were to put a monetary value on teachers, I say start them at $50K. In exchange, bust the union and allow free competition in the workforce. Give management ultimate power in negotiating individual contracts. This way we have a better chance of keeping the best teachers, and encouraging students to enter the profession.

 

[Screw You Captain]

Hey Lindros,

Maybe a few too many concussions for you...

Just remember that the public sector is supposed to work for the people. Lots of the cuts are short-sighted and will cost us more down the road, ie social workers dealing with messed up families.

I also don't think privatizing will save us much. Essentially what will happen is that people now making a decent wage, say $15/hour, will make 9 bucks an hour while the company that contracts (pimps?) them out pockets the difference. The taxpayer still pays $15 an hour, some company guy gets rich, and the workers get another kick in the ass.

 

[Dude]

Hey Communist!

Screw You,

You know me pretty well, and I'd probably agree with you on many points regarding essential services.

I went off on a huge tangent to make a point about Clark- a guy who did more damage to this province in 3-1/2 years than most left wingers would care to admit. Perhaps one of the biggest craters he left was a hole where the once strong NDP party used to sit. The people spoke at the polls so strongly that we now don't have anybody in opposition to hold the Liberals feet to the fire.

Like I said...Campbell is hell bent on balancing the budget at all costs. A lot of people are going to feel the pain for a couple of years because of his cuts- especially people in the lower income range, the elderly, and handicapped. My point is, the people to blame are the former NDP, and Clark in particular.

BTW: what do you think of Sweden and Japan?

 

[Screw You Captain]

Solidarity

BTW: what do you think of Sweden and Japan?

Japan's in trouble more because of its banking system, non?

I like those tall, blond, blue-eyed Swedes. Their visor-wearing tendencies are perhaps an effort to control healthcare spending in their successful state-funded system.

See you at training at the Sundowner!

 

[tiner]

sympathy

as i am back in australia my rights are safe from gordy.

to the teachers of BC : go loud.go hard...dont let him get away with this. anyone know anybody in S11???

to non- teachers in BC: you belong in a community and this is a problem for everybody. not only is he creating nightmare learning conditions for children he is removing freedoms that have been long taken for granted.

Skytrain......IF THEY COULD HAVE VOLUNTEERS PREVENT EXTRA CURRICULAR ACTIVITIES EFFECTED BY THIS CRAP THEY WOULD...OK?

there has been no negotiation or respect extended to BC teachers in this campaign. they have been treated with the kind of contempt reserved for terrorists.

 

[Regs]

Please explain to me how this has created nightmare learning conditions for children?

I'm just curious as to what your specific reasons are for saying this.

~TB.

 

[Dude]

Union rhetoric

That sounds like a typical union scare tactic line to me. I think, more realistically, most students aren't living any "nightmares" because of the class size. If they are living a "nighmare", it is probably more due to the typical pressures / crisis’s students will always face- peer pressure, bullying, problems at home, zits...I'm pretty sure the majority actually don't have a huge concern about class sizes.

I think it is more of a "nightmare" for teachers because they are obviously less effective with a larger class size. Besides being forced to give less individual attention, they now have the same time frame to mark more papers, more projects, and more tests. That will force teachers to "skim" more, rather than thoroughly marking the paper. This should be a concern for parents, too.

I know what you're getting at though, TB.

 

[Keeper]

I think it is more of a "nightmare" for teachers because they are obviously less effective with a larger class size. Besides being forced to give less individual attention, they now have the same time frame to mark more papers, more projects, and more tests. That will force teachers to "skim" more, rather than thoroughly marking the paper.

And you think this doesn't affect the kids?

 

[Dude]

Obviously

Obviously it does, smart guy, but think back to when you were a high school, junior high, or elementary school kid. Was your first priority class size? If it was, you are one of the very few. Most were worried about selecting teams for California Kickball at recess, or fitting in with a peer group.

My point was that Tiner was spouting off typical Union rhetoric by saying "the kids are living a nightmare". Be realistic: the kids aren't living a nightmare by getting all the extra time away from school. The parents have a very legitimate beef, and the end result will be that our kids don't get the quality of education we all think they are entitled to. But living a nightmare? Maybe the teachers could make a solid argument for tough working conditions, but the word "nightmare" should be reserved for the likes of the Afghan people living in tents in the middle of winter, not our problems.

Come on Keeper...I know you're bright. Next time read carefully before you type your rebuttal.

 

[Keeper]

It doesn't matter whether or not the kids actually know what's happening -- I agree, not many kids think about how much attention they're getting, except when they continue to ask for help during class and they never get it -- all they're usually concerned about is extra-curicular activities.

As for "the nightmare": it's union rhetoric. It's description of one side of the coin in order to draw attention to the problem. You can equate it with the government's rhetoric, "it's good for kids", as the other side trying to calm the public down. It's extremely bad, perhaps not a "nightmare", but at the same time, it's definately not "good for kids".

And as I said, it doesn't matter whether or not the kids realize it.

 

[deb]

in response

There are always going to be people who say that those of us who are teachers knew what we were getting into when we started and so should accept the conditions we have. I would like to know, though, of those of you who oppose the teachers' job action, how many have children? How many are thinking of sending these children to province-run schools? How many of you would be content with the having their child in a classroom that is under-resourced in more ways than one?

On a "My, isn't Mr Campbell doing well" note, I have been made aware that the current government has closed 18 courts and jails in the province. Lock your doors, people.

Oh, and John, it's ETC not ect. It stands for et cetera, the Latin for "and so on".

And you thought teachers were good for nothing!!!!!!!

 

[Dude]

Tiner,

I don’t know whom your response was directed to, because you didn’t specify. I, personally, think you’re being a little over the top with statements like “nightmare learning conditions”, and “Lock your doors, people”. You paint a picture akin to South Africa when segregation was lifted. It seems you would have everyone believe BC is sitting on the cusp of anarchy. I don’t agree with the approach the “Liberals” have taken towards dealing with our teachers…I am probably in agreement with what most teachers would claim are fair working conditions and pay. My point is, a lot of us are on your side, but be realistic with your statements.

My answer to your questions: I have a 2-1/2 year old, and another on the way. If I can afford it, I will likely search out a private school. This isn’t because I don’t have faith in the public school teachers- I had some great ones growing up, and I know there are more better teachers than poor teachers- but because I don’t necessarily have faith in the public system.

Anyhow, that’s my opinion. BTW: you should lock your doors anyhow!

 

[Captain Shamrock]

I don’t necessarily have faith in the public system.

Dude,

What don't you have faith in? You are absolutely right when you said that that there are more good teachers than bad, but the bottom line is this; a kid will get out of school what a kid wants to get out of school. I have taught in the Catholic school system and have friends who teach in the private school system and I can guarantee you there are shitty teachers in these schools too. Too often parents put kids into private schools for the wrong reason. The most common reason is to shelter their kids from the public school system and keep them out of trouble. This is a road to disaster. There are a lot of unhappy teachers in the private schools too because they are being asked to do A LOT of extra-curricular activities without being compensated for them.

BTW, congrats on your second child being on the way. Enjoy your time now because I remember when one kid was easy....

I have faith in the public school system. I just have to make sure I 'check' the schools and teachers out so I can make sure my children get the best possible opportunity. After all, the teachers are only 1/2 of the puzzle. We are the other 1/2 that often goes missing......


Captain

 

[5bigtoes]

excellent points

Well said Captain,

I have faith in the public school system. I just have to make sure I 'check' the schools and teachers out so I can make sure my children get the best possible opportunity. After all, the teachers are only 1/2 of the puzzle. We are the other 1/2 that often goes missing......

As a parent of 3 beautiful children, I could not agree more.....

Truly, I am worried about what the agenda of this Government is?

I have always supported the teachers and agree whole heartedly with your points. Myself as a parent and my children only get out of school what we all put into it. This is in essence what being a parent is all about, committing yourself to your kids, teaching them, helping them to learn, helping to educated, and having fun enjoying life.

5btlovesbeingaDADit'sthebestpartoflife

 

[Captain Shamrock]

Especially when you win big bets...... Being a Dad is just that much better.


Captain

 

[deb]

Dude -

My name is Deb. In answer to your query, I wrote in response to what I had read in general. I did not write about "nightmare learning conditions" and the "lock your doors, people" comment was written for dramatic effect and not meant to be taken seriously.

The reason I brought up the comment about whether or not people were intending to send their children to government schools is because, as the Captain said, teachers are only part of the equation. It just seems that teachers are often the part that ends up getting blamed for children not receiving the best possible education and the other parts of the equation are left alone. I think that is why we, as teachers, can appear to be very defensive about our jobs.

Ideally, it is the entire community's responsibility to educate our children. Aren't they - the children - the real reason why we're all so worried? And don't you think it's sad that people have lost faith in a system that should be revered and held as the best possible education system so that all children, regardless of background, could be ensured a quality, modern and complete education? Isn't that why we have governments - to help us achieve this?

 

[Dude]

Deb the Aussie

Deb,

Sorry! I saw your Aussie flag and automatically assumed you were Tiner.

I quite honestly don't have a game plan yet for school. We've checked out a couple of public elementary schools in the area (including a brand new one in our neighborhood), and they seem pretty good. I think we'll more than likely lean towards private for middle school and high school...that is, if we can afford it! At this point, the motivation isn't to try and keep them out of trouble, just to try and provide the best.

For the record, I don’t blame the teachers. I’ve always thought they were underpaid, and we should be paying more for extra time and extra curricular. I know there are arguments against this (i.e.: teachers who will take on coaching just for the money), but I also don’t believe in equal pay for un-equal work.

 

[Keeper]

Now I hear that only the first year of the 7.5% raise in the current (legislated) contract will be paid for by the Government. Years 2 and 3 will come out of the local School Boards budget. It seems to me that by forcing the districts to squeeze out the money awarded to teachers by government rule leads to a reduction in funding for each school, and in turn, each student's education.

So my question is this: How does this reduction in available monies "put students first"?

 

[tiner]

students first????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...like that would ever happen!

government decisions are rarely made based on educational outcomes and generally on economic ones.

Yes i use 'union' or rhetoric that is over the top at times. i make no apology for that.

i dont see what i do as merely a job. i play a major role in children's lives and i take that very seriously and feel very passionate and protective about the kids that i teach. so...... i take some of these debates to heart and often my comments merely refect a desire to at least try and get outsiders to understand how much this crap campbell is dishing out scares me

 

[Bigun]

Politics

The whole situation stunning. My apologies for a long absence, but being in an administrative position through all of this has been a rather busy go, especially as I have continued coaching Sr. Boys basketball, while helping with teams who beacame suddenly without coaches.

Some of you have inquired about the public response...

1. 70% of the public does not have kids in school, therfore they do not give a shite.

2. The other 30% have forgotten that school was important beyond daycare.

3. Together they equally 100% of the most easily swayed, unelightened electorate in this country (Maritimes could push)

4. I'll get back to these later.

As for the work to rule program, it was ill thought out and pitted members against each other, while sacrificing kids. Perhaps not in the GVRD, where they turned to club ball and various other community activities, but in a small northern community where myy athletics program is the only show in town, it can be devastating. My kids count on being taken on the road almost every weekend. I count on this as a means of keeping them out of trouble. However, a government based in the pockets of business is not concerned of the different reality of these communities.

MOre important however, is the simple realization that the government has teachers over a barrel. Most teacher like their jobs and enjoy spending time with the students. Be it dances, tutorials, hikes, band, drama, clubs, sports, yearbook... they like it. Sure some are punching the clock... but that goes for any job. Sadly, these are the only ones that get prime time notice by previously mentioned John Q public. Now that the token 7.5 % has been given, and choice returned to the BCTF members, the reality many will go back to business as usual becuase it is what they love to do. Those who don't, probably didn't anyway. But watch, teachers will go back to doing the extras, and government will say "See, everything is fine. They just wanted more money."
Then when things fall apart in a few years, the response will be, "We can't afford it because they wanted more money."

Did I mention John Q Public? He will eat this right up.

But the plot thickens? We see a forced/ imposed contract being called a collective agreement, and the party who has impose the settlement on school districts is turning aroun and saying they won't pay for the contract they have imposed through legislation.
John Q Public seems to have missed this, along with the huge raise the MLA's gave themselves in the spring when they were tossing out tax breaks, and oh yes then they realize there is no money so we have to give out mass pink slips and oh by the way we will give back 5% of the 30% raise we gave ourselves because times are hard.

It is shocking.

Don't get me wrong, some parts of the legislation, from an adminstrative POV are promising, but it was so poorly put togehter, I am less than optimistic as a whole. Moreover, it has been heartbreaking to see the effect it has had on my staff. We have a staff that contributes in so many different ways, and to see Chem 12 teachers torn up because their union has said they can't give tutorials, of English teachers have to telll remedial students they can't read to them at lunch, because they are worried about disciplinary action from their union.... brutal.

Yet what options were out there?

Told you can't strike because of essential service legislation, how can you bargain when their is no good faith? As for the 36% or 22%, reasonable or not is really a moot point. In the North, many were embarrassed by the suggestion in areas where many are unemployed due to the lumber problems. This situation was also imposed by province-wide bargaining, so once again, the North is just along for the ride.

It will be interesting to see where things go. Teaching is a great job. No... check that... it isn't a job, it is a "calling". But we are in for some significant changes. And as the govenrment suddently declares a $4 bill deficit (when auditors have admitted the inept NDP left a surplus), watch John Q Public. They will cry about the cuts, bag teachers for their7.5 over the last 13 years, and in two years... forget everything. That will be when the Liberals (small l of BIG L... that's funny) will claim to have suddenly found a surplus, and they will give John Q all kinds of dollars because they have finally dug us out of the NDP pit. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the NDP either, but in order to read this government, you better brush up on Orwell's 1984. This is "double-speak" in its simplest form, and John Q Public is hanging on every word.

Cheers