Gun control on a more serious level

[Dude]

I think we can all pretty much agree that the rioting was a shamefull joke. Though, we've rioted out here for far less (twice), so as a city, we can't say we're much better.

 

[Dude]

On a lighter note, Utah, remind me to tell you the story of me and a buddy's venture into a Hip Hop Stripper bar in Charlotte, making it rain from the balcony on the naked stipper boxing ring, and somehow having a corporate visa credit card mixed in amongst the one dollar bills, and, erm, losing the visa in the rainfall.

"Hello Visa? I lost my credit card last night. Can you tell me if there were any charges past 3 AM?"
"Yes sir, there is one charge, at 4:39 AM, for $19.95 at the Waffle House. Do you wish to dispute the charges?"
"Ummmmm...no, that's OK. This one is on me."

Good times.

 

[bandcamp]

I read that police are not allowed to fire warning shots into the air and are also not allowed to shoot to injure. If they are committing to drawing and shooting their gun then they are to shoot centre mass and keep firing until the threat is no longer a threat.

 

[cascadesoccer]

Its getting to the point that any black/white crime is racially motivated. Any brown/person of religion is a terrorist attack. Any kid who commits a crime is a video game/movies fault. Any situtation or mishap now, is just a reason for someone to complain on how their feelings were hurt at some point and time. Time for the whole world to just grow the fcuk up.

 

[Dude]

Do you know anything about the evidence in the case or in fact the law? Or the bar in the mid-west US which is exponentially lower than in Canada for indictments (charge approval). Were you there? Did you read the over 1000 pages of evidence and hear the testimony of the over 60 witnesses, most of which were sympathetic to Mr.Brown? Pretty dangerous to draw conclusions based on what people who get paid to sell newspapers say, IMHO.

PS if the officer was to be indicted or convicted, manslaughter would not be an appropriate charge as that means that the officer did not specifically intend to kill Mr. Brown. I think he did, so second degree murder would be the appropriate charge here, but the GJ found that the statutory defence of self defense applied I would assume. Having said that, only if there was evidence to support it; and the Grand Jury heard a lot of evidence in a political environment where it would have been really easy not to have the courage to make the right decision.

As Utah said, this is still the best post in this thread.

Care to expand? I can only assume the above is linked to this (below)...would love to get more on your oinion on this.

This is not about the shooting/justification of said event when you think about it. That is why those a bit more obtuse than others hitch their emotions to this as a lightning rod for what is really the issue here.
It is about something else. Which is the really the elephant in the room.
Sir M

 

[Sir M]

The elephant is systemic racism (this may have been what I edited utah). I do not think that is the issue with this shooting, and do think that the officer was justified in this (as does the GJ, the DA and many legal scholars) in law. But what did happen is it set off the whole racism debate.

And Dude, police are trained to shoot to stop once they make that decision if they feel that the life of him/herself or others is in imminent danger. And to stop means to shoot to kill. The other methods like phasers on stun or particle beams do not work on a consistent basis, ask Spock. Plus if a man is of that size and weight oftentimes bullets do not stop him at first. That is what my force expert friend in the police tells me anyway. Finally, I am told police are trained in stressful situations and dealing with conflict and de-escalation. De-escalation is not too easy when a frothing at the mouth man 130 pounds heavier and nine inches taller than you fresh off a committing a robbery is not stopping and trying to get your gun so that he can kill you...I would imagine.

My point is this is really about racism in the US, not the shooting.

PS I am not giving up any onions, I am planning on making a salad tonight.

 

[cascadesoccer]

Here is a great letter written by Benjamin Watson regarding the Ferguson issues.

New Orleans Saints tight end Benjamin Watson tackled his conflicting feelings about Ferguson in a Facebook postthat has gone viral. The 33-year-old father of four said he was inspired to write down his emotions after a grand jury decided Monday not to indict Ferguson, Missouri, police officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of teenager Michael Brown.

As of Thursday morning, Watson's essay has been shared more than 344,000 times and garnered more than 600,000 "likes" on Facebook. Commentators are hailing him for being both objective and open in a case that has polarized people across the country.


At some point while I was playing or preparing to play Monday Night Football, the news broke about the Ferguson Decision. After trying to figure out how I felt, I decided to write it down. Here are my thoughts:

I'M ANGRY because the stories of injustice that have been passed down for generations seem to be continuing before our very eyes.

I'M FRUSTRATED, because pop culture, music and movies glorify these types of police citizen altercations and promote an invincible attitude that continues to get young men killed in real life, away from safety movie sets and music studios.

I'M FEARFUL because in the back of my mind I know that although I'm a law abiding citizen I could still be looked upon as a "threat" to those who don't know me. So I will continue to have to go the extra mile to earn the benefit of the doubt.

I'M EMBARRASSED because the looting, violent protests, and law breaking only confirm, and in the minds of many, validate, the stereotypes and thus the inferior treatment.

I'M SAD, because another young life was lost from his family, the racial divide has widened, a community is in shambles, accusations, insensitivity hurt and hatred are boiling over, and we may never know the truth about what happened that day.

I'M SYMPATHETIC, because I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what happened. Maybe Darren Wilson acted within his rights and duty as an officer of the law and killed Michael Brown in self defense like any of us would in the circumstance. Now he has to fear the backlash against himself and his loved ones when he was only doing his job. What a horrible thing to endure. OR maybe he provoked Michael and ignited the series of events that led to him eventually murdering the young man to prove a point.

I'M OFFENDED, because of the insulting comments I've seen that are not only insensitive but dismissive to the painful experiences of others.

I'M CONFUSED, because I don't know why it's so hard to obey a policeman. You will not win!!! And I don't know why some policeman abuse their power. Power is a responsibility, not a weapon to brandish and lord over the populace.

I'M INTROSPECTIVE, because sometimes I want to take "our" side without looking at the facts in situations like these. Sometimes I feel like it's us against them. Sometimes I'm just as prejudiced as people I point fingers at. And that's not right. How can I look at white skin and make assumptions but not want assumptions made about me? That's not right.

I'M HOPELESS, because I've lived long enough to expect things like this to continue to happen. I'm not surprised and at some point my little children are going to inherit the weight of being a minority and all that it entails.

I'M HOPEFUL, because I know that while we still have race issues in America, we enjoy a much different normal than those of our parents and grandparents. I see it in my personal relationships with teammates, friends and mentors. And it's a beautiful thing.

I'M ENCOURAGED, because ultimately the problem is not a SKIN problem, it is a SIN problem. SIN is the reason we rebel against authority. SIN is the reason we abuse our authority. SIN is the reason we are racist, prejudiced and lie to cover for our own. SIN is the reason we riot, loot and burn. BUT I'M ENCOURAGED because God has provided a solution for sin through the his son Jesus and with it, a transformed heart and mind. One that's capable of looking past the outward and seeing what's truly important in every human being. The cure for the Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice and Eric Garner tragedies is not education or exposure. It's the Gospel. So, finally, I'M ENCOURAGED because the Gospel gives mankind hope

 

[freddy]

So, God is good and all will be well, so says the Gospel. I am glad that is settled. Everyone can get back to their turkey dinner now. But first . . .

Ezekiel 25:17. The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.

And then the second amendment kicks in . . .

 

[Sir M]

Freddy, quit watching Pulp Fiction again and get back to work.

 

[Dude]

Dammit, I had a long reply started then it got cyber snapped.

Thanks Sirem. I know going into a debate w/ you on this is akin to going into a gun fight w/ a knife. I'm never going to be as prepared to debate this, given your friend's experience. I agree w/ you on the racism elephant. It's especially too prevalent in the US, where it is thick as pea soup, and where it is used as an excuse for anything more often than not.

But, what if, in a case like this, it actually factors in? The bigger question is then, how do you sort out the liars? Shouldn't society question that more closely? Doesn't it deserve to be charged even if there is some question of motive?

I've never been and never will be in a situation like that, thank Dog. That being said, it's a thick, thick racial climate down there, one I don't think any of us can appreciate. Truly an US vs. THEM mentality. I can't believe that some of those shots between leading up to #12 weren't somewhat motivated by something other than purely self-defence, and I'd like to have seen that go to trial.

BTW, Utah...I don't think we disagree on much, here. I don't disagree that MB deserved to be shot. Hell, you can probably argue that the cop had little choice, and more clear thinking people wouldn't disagree. I just question the subsequent shots, and question if the broad latitude officers in this situation are allotted wasn't perhaps abused.

 

[Sir M]

I think Dude that there is a very robust criminal justice system in place that takes care of this and it has many levels to make sure the right decisions are made. Further, that system is acutely aware of a "higher bar" for police as they are afforded special powers by society, one of which is a power to use lethal force. So the system is always very sensitive to that, and frankly, police always are, and should be given their role, put under much greater scrutiny than any other citizen. You could probably equate this to, that due to the police's extraordinary powers that they have been given in a free and democratic society, they will come under far greater scrutiny than others. A Grand Jury is carefully chosen, and carefully instructed by senior counsel and very senior jurists. It is really easy to make conclusions on the case based on media reports of the colour of the involved party's skin (ie every media report describes Mr. Brown as an "unarmed black man" and fan things to sell papers and get people inflamed). That is good business for them. The Grand Jury deliberated for a very long time on this matter before they decided. It would have been such an easy out for them given the circumstances and ill-informed public opinion to indict: they would have known if they chose not to indict that it would cause large scale rioting and probably several deaths. It would have been very easy to abdicate their role in the justice system and "pass the buck" if you will, to a judge and jury at trial. That would have been much easier for them. The fact that they did not exercise this option to me speaks not only to their courage, but resoundingly what the evidence was that they had before them. The whole system is built on evidence as opposed to opinion or rumour, speculation, or media reports etc.. You and yours are guarded by those same principles of justice, moreso than that police officer, because of his/her special powers given by the state.

The issue, again I submit, is not the justice system or the Grand Jury. It is the environment in which a legitimate judgement has caused this amount of disconcert; that environment is racially charged in Missouri and many other states.

 

[trece verde]

One could argue, Sir M, that there's a bit more than a robust system; it's more of an industry, especially given that the US has the highest incarceration rate of its own citizens amongst all industrialized countries. Why is that? Mayhap something to do with the size of the underclass there and the persistence of poverty that permeates it? Remember also that American judiciary are elected instead of appointed, and my cynical point of view contends that actions taken are as much about the desire to stay in that elected office as of serving justice. When do "extraordinary powers" become "too much power?" What's the balancing point?

Brown was described as an "unarmed black man" because he was an unarmed black man. Will the 'Murrken culture ever be able to get to the point where he would just be described as an "unarmed young man?" Somehow I doubt it, and the meaning of that statement implies both how White America views it and how Black America views it, and the polarization between the two. This is a country that cannot seem to get over its history, and seems to be doomed to repeat all of its mistakes. Again.

There are a few other things that are odd in this to me...

• Officer Wilson is not a small guy himself. He was described in one media report as 6'4" and 215 lbs. Not huge, but large enough to be a visible presence.
• Why was he by himself when confronting two suspects? Allegedly this is a guy who had been a police officer for 6 years. Maybe not the best-trained, but I would definitely question his judgement.
• Dude: do you have any idea how fast a 290 lb linebacker can run? Just to play devil's advocate here, think about a moving target coming toward you at that speed, and how difficult it would be to hit accurately. I'm not a firearms expert either, but revolvers weren't designed for accuracy. I saw a training video from the US about the minimum safe distance that the PD who produced it were recommending for their officers to keep between themselves and a suspect, and it's greater than 20 feet. I agree that the number of shots fired seemed excessive, especially (supposedly) after Wilson shot Brown in the head, but how many were from bad training, too much adrenaline, poor aim, or Brown himself?
• why was Brown's body left out in the street for 4 hours after he was obviously dead? Yes, this is also an allegation and there are legitimate forensic reasons for not wanting to move things until research is concluded, but it doesn't help build positive relations with the major demographic in the community.

Rant over...

 

[Sir M]

I heard he was on the way to a fireworks display with a bottle of wine in his backpack.

 

[mtkb]

Their criminal justice system is rife with stuff that makes colleagues and I shudder with the obvious unfairness of it... when you have prosecutors suppressing evidence and tampering with Grand Juries, and for profit prisons bribing judges toss youths in jail, it's hard to agree with any idea that theirs is a system of sober second thought. They fry young black men for little more than being black and poor for God's sake.... the number of innocent men put to death down there has to be truly staggering, and certain members of their top court couldn't care less...

Re Michael Brown.... no doubt there wasn't enough clear evidence to warrant an indictment of the officer. Fine. Don't' think that's what the outrage is. The elephant in the room is that there's a damn good chance either conscious or subconscious racial prejudices played a part in how quickly the incident escalated... why you would have a predominately white police force in a black suburb is beyond me... the US has a long way to go before incidents like this cease...

 

[Sir M]

Freddy....

 

[freddy]

I don't know what that is about. I was quoting a passage I learned in Sunday school.

 

[Regs]

It's good to see that stupidy still knows no bounds

http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/yourcom...-rally-anger-blacklivesmatter-protesters.html

 

[Sir M]

Here is some evidence:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rown-taunted-cop-Darren-Wilson-shot-dead.html

For consideration.

 

[freddy]

Well, that makes it all right then. Fair enough - he saw the ultimate pussy calling challenge and raised it with a gun barrel straight. Game, set, and match.

 

[Sir M]

Reminds me a bit of Poco vs Westside actually.