Gun control on a more serious level

[Dude]

Yep..your all right. I'm clueless and short sited . No one should own a gun, hunting legally should be banned around the world and no one will ever get murdered.

My opinion is..your a bunch of fcuking idiots. Again....( MY opinion ) your allowed yours I'm allowed mine.

I agree theses killings are sad and not warranted but why include all gun owners in this? You all bundle this under one category saying guns are bad, irresponsible gun ownership and too easy access to illegal guns is the issue i agree. Gun control is a very difficult issue, a gun is sold to a seemingly responsibly individual - he doesn't lock his gun in a safe and his crazy fcuking kid goes on a rampage and kills a school full of children and then its ALL GUNS SHOULD BE BANNED.

Everyone knows I like a lively debate, and it’s not the first time somebody has told me directly or indirectly I’m a fcuking idiot. Usually they back it up with a solid argument, to which I may or may not respond. I know when I’m beaten, at least. The problem with you is that your argument is weak. Allow me to shoot it full of holes.

First, nobody said hunting should be banned. Besides, the vast majority of gun owners in the US have never hunted. I don't need to look up the stats to know this.

Gun owners- especially in the US, but here, too- always, and I mean ALWAYS get defensive when there are mass murders like this. Which, ironically, happen mostly in the US, where there is virtually no real gun control. Responsible gun ownership is non-existent in the US. Is the US the highest per capita? Well, according to Wikipedia, it is. About double, actually of the second most (Serbia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

The source of this stat came from this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-for-every-man-woman-and-child-and-then-some/ "There are now more guns than people in the United States". Scary, no? How can that be allowed to happen?

As you go down the list, there are several countries ahead of Canada, and maybe only one stands out as a warring nation, where violence is out of control (Iraq). These countries are:

Number of guns per capita by country
United States (runaway leader)
Serbia
Yemen
Switzerland
Cyprus
Saudi Arabia
Iraq
Uruguay
Sweden
Norway
France
Canada


Here is another damning statistic page: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/

Gun homicides and gun ownership by country- Top 10:
US
Yemen
Switzerland
Finland
Serbia
Cyprus
Saudi Arabia
Iraq
Uruguay
Sweden

(FYI: Canada is ranked 13).


It’s ironic that gun owners claim responsible gun ownership should mean fewer gun related murders, when there seems to be a direct correlation between Number of guns per capita by country & Gun homicides and gun ownership by country. In fact, it’s startlingly identical, in terms of the leaderboard. FYI, France is ranked 12 on Gun homicides and gun ownership by country, one lower than their ranking on ownership per capita. It must mean they are doing a better job, right? Wrong. The Fins, those crazy fcuking Fins, are making the most of their guns per capita…not even in the top 12 for ownership, but they killed their way all the way into 4th! fcuking 4th! One more spot and they’d be on the podium. With hard killing work and more guns per capita, the statistics strongly suggest Finland can land themselves in that top 3, and bump out the very vanilla Swiss.

But I digress…

None of these other countries make the headlines the same way the US does, and with as much frequency, for gun violence. Somebody with more time than I have can do the research, but my best is there are less than 5 mass shooting of the same nature in all these countries combines (excluding Iraq) in the same time frame since Columbine. Somebody else with more time than I have (I'm busy, OK?) can do the research and either substantiate my guess, or, ahem, shoot my guess full of holes.

That said…if you still think we’re all fcuking idiots for our opinions, fair enough. But the stats are damning, and tell the real story: the countries w/ the fewest gun ownership per capita happen to also be the countries w/ the fewest gun homicides. To which there can be only one conclusion: banning guns would indeed reduce gun related homicides in the US. It’s statistically factual.

 

[cascadesoccer]

Iraq isn't in the top 5 AND THEY HAVE A FCUKING WAR GOING ON THERE. that says something.

 

[Dude]

Many a conspiracy theorist would also (and maybe successfully) argue that many of the guns in Iraq have been supplied by American outfits.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist (though I like hearing a good one), but I think that'd be one of the obvious ones pointed out.

 

[Rangerforever]

I saw an American on the BBC when I was in England stating that the homicides include suicides.
And that was a big stat and needed to be taken out.
The debate being they would commit suicide another way anyway.
So its OK for suicidal people and/or maniacs to have guns...
One of the interviewers then asked about the number of murder/suicides with guns and that completely stumped the guy.
Give me strength...

 

[Dude]

The UK? What do they know.

They not only have super strict gun control laws, but they have had, like, ZERO mass shootings in the same time frame since Columbine. They have no basis of experience in this, RF, so with all due respect, anyone from the UK can fcuk right off w/ their opinion, they just don't know or understand.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

 

[Dude]

...but don't let facts and stats get in the way of a good argument.

 

[Sir M]

Dude are you self employed?

 

[Dude]

Longshoreman.

 

[bulljive]

Honestly Red-16 I find it incredible that these incidents keep happening and there are still people that have your opinion on it. you're right there will always be people that want to do these things because they are more or less just evil people, or mentally ill, or lost and get caught up in extremist groups for various reasons but the problem is it is so easy for them to access these weapons.

You can't keep saying you can't prevent these incidents or a nutter, as other countries clearly have. Obviously in America especially,they need to find a way for hunters to be able to have guns as it is apart of who they are in some parts of the country but they need to get tough on gun control, people aren't going to like it but then they will be alive to be pissed off about it. To the obvious point if said persons seemingly crazy fcuking kids dad doesn't have a gun does he have as much of a chance to go carry out the mass shooting? My friends personally don't hunt and honestly it would be quite difficult for me to get access to a gun without setting off alarm bells. it should be incredibly difficult to get a gun, my opinion. You can't prevent every incident but don't make it so fcuking easy either. Do people even need to have guns at home? Maybe they are kept at gun clubs or stored in controlled facilities near hunting areas. Maybe that's ridiculous I don't know but fukc how many more incidents before people wake up.

 

[Reds-16]

Do people even need to have guns at home? Maybe they are kept at gun clubs or stored in controlled facilities near hunting areas. Maybe that's ridiculous I don't know but fukc how many more incidents before people wake up.[/QUOTE]

I may not need my hunting rifle at home, but it is, along with 2 shot guns and my brothers rifle ( as he has no safe ) locked away in a very expensive safe that is virtually impossible to access or move as it anchored to the floor as well.

It is rediculous to try to secure it somewhere near where we hunt because we hunt in different areas all over British Columbia. I won't fault you for thinking that as you are not a hunter and really have no idea how the system works.

I do agree that in the sates the laws are too lax but what is an amicable solution??? I don't want my gun taken away because some crazy fcuk went nuts and shot a bunch of people down in Oregon or Texas.

I still believe that I along with the people I go hunting with ( which is basically camping with a bunch of friends who get up at 4 walk for miles and try to bring home some amazing meat for our families ) should be allowed to own guns.

If you all have the solution I'm more than willing to listen, but I find it very unlikely that anyone does. I'm sorry we don't agree on this but neither of us is going to change our mind.

 

[bulljive]

i don't think hunters need to have their guns taken away per say. I don't know the stats but I doubt most mass shootings aren't carried out by every day hunting rifles. My question is why do people need hand guns and these high powered assault rifles. Why are they out there. To me citizens walking around with hand guns or even owning them is ridiculous. Look at the women today who started opening fire on a shoplifter. Honestly.

 

[Reds-16]

i don't think hunters need to have their guns taken away per say. I don't know the stats but I doubt most mass shootings aren't carried out by every day hunting rifles. My question is why do people need hand guns and these high powered assault rifles. Why are they out there. To me citizens walking around with hand guns or even owning them is ridiculous. Look at the women today who started opening fire on a shoplifter. Honestly.

100% Agree

 

[Yoda]

I don't think we need to have a 100% ban on guns but some laws that are way more strict are necessary to minimize every tom, Dick, and idiot from owning one just because it's their right and it's for their protection.
I don't hunt, and I don't think we need to punish the true hunters with these laws.
But tell me this, if you really enjoy hunting, would it be that big a deal to jump through a few hoops to own a gun or are hunters just too fcukin lazy to do this? Can't be that bad to go through a few new laws can it? Just think about all the needless deaths and killings that could be prevented if bob the plotting psychopath, who got a B instead of an A on his assignment, can't just walk in to Walmart, grab a gun off the shelf and walk out to his college and blow people away.

Jim Jeffries explains it all quite well I think.

 

[bandcamp]

100% Agree

Why are you still worried about your guns being taken away when we are trying to talk about gun control? As Bulljive stated, if I wanted to get a gun I have no idea where I'd look. THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. The fact that the culture is the opposite is the problem. Control the guns and lower the deaths…simple. You and your precious little hunting friends are safe.

 

[Reds-16]

I don't think we need to have a 100% ban on guns but some laws that are way more strict are necessary to minimize every tom, Dick, and idiot from owning one just because it's their right and it's for their protection.
I don't hunt, and I don't think we need to punish the true hunters with these laws.
But tell me this, if you really enjoy hunting, would it be that big a deal to jump through a few hoops to own a gun or are hunters just too fcukin lazy to do this? Can't be that bad to go through a few new laws can it? Just think about all the needless deaths and killings that could be prevented if bob the plotting psychopath, who got a B instead of an A on his assignment, can't just walk in to Walmart, grab a gun off the shelf and walk out to his college and blow people away.

Jim Jeffries explains it all quite well I think.

Hopefully Bandcamp doesn't shite all over me for answering this question. The fact is we do have to jump through hoops here in Canada, as mentioned in response to Bulljives post. We take courses and go through extensive back ground checks. Obviously in the US not so much as mentioned by Dude with approx 88% gun ownership.

Its a scary situation down there but I don't think there is a solution. They may be able to make it more difficult to obtain a fire arm in the future but those who have them will not be handing them back.

 

[Yoda]

Its a scary situation down there but I don't think there is a solution. They may be able to make it more difficult to obtain a fire arm in the future but those who have them will not be handing them back.

I know Canada has its hoops which is likely why we don't have the shootings the US does.

I don't think there is a solution that will immediately eliminate those guns that are out there but they could do something that would help over time. Or at least make it look like they are trying or give a shite about all the innocent victims that have died. Anything at all. I think that's what pisses people off the most is that gun lobbyists and owners don't appear to give a shite.

Again, not referring to true "hunters"

 

[STD]

Hopefully Bandcamp doesn't shite all over me for answering this question. The fact is we do have to jump through hoops here in Canada, as mentioned in response to Bulljives post. We take courses and go through extensive back ground checks. Obviously in the US not so much as mentioned by Dude with approx 88% gun ownership.

Its a scary situation down there but I don't think there is a solution. They may be able to make it more difficult to obtain a fire arm in the future but those who have them will not be handing them back.

It is actually not as difficult as you make it sound. You can correct me if I am wrong but in most areas in Canada unlike the States you are not allowed to carry your gun unless you are on your way to a gun range or hunting or you get fined. Change that to you automatically have the gun taken away from you with the fine and a ban on owning guns. Second make it mandatory that all guns are properly secured,like you have done,and if they are not and someone uses your gun you're responsible and will automatically get 25 years in jail no questions asked.Your gun you are in jail regardless who used it to kill. There are plenty of things you can do to change the culture and peoples mind set about whether they want the responsibility to own a gun but the real problem is there is no political will to get it done because in the States in particular it would be political suicide to suggest it.

 

[Dude]

Reds: this debate is mostly aimed at our neighbours down South, but I still think we have a problem here. One of the problems, and I'm sure any cop can substantiate this, is that a lot of the illegal firearms get up here from the States. Used to be in exchange for weed, not so sure anymore. So, part of curbing the problem here is directly related to curbing the problem there.

But, as pointed out, there is a massive cultural change that needs to happen, and it may never occur.

Three years ago I flew down to Tucson for a four day retreat / sales meeting, and as has become my standard practice, I packed up my mountain bike for the trip, not golf clubs.
I got in contact w/ a local rider, and he took me out to a favourite local spot just out of town. As we are driving through the area where we’ll be riding, he points out “the shooting range”. Basically, it’s an unofficial area generally acknowledged to be for gun enthusiasts only. Now, I know hunters; some of my best friends are avid hunters. My Mum’s side were not just avid hunters, they were all out hippies who virtually lived off the land on Texada (my uncle is actually an avid bow hunter, as well as riffle).They eat nothing but wild game and farm raised animals. I’ve seen their equipment, seen the photos, have heard the stories. Without being one myself (I decided when I was young it wasn’t for me), I get it, and fully respect, for the most part, the hunters and their activity. There is a grey area that falls into trophy hunting alone that I don’t quite agree with, but that is my hippy / nature loving side. From what I’ve learned about my friends is that they respect the nature, respect the animal, and a big part of hunting is to have that clean kill, and to limit the animal’s suffering as much as possible. Plus, there is an emphasis to use ALL the meet. Nothing wasted.

Also, with all my contact w/ hunters, to a person they all had their guns safely locked away. Those guns could not be used as weapons in a spontaneous moment, no matter what. Could they be used by their owner in a planned and crafted scenario? Sure. But I suspect anyone intent on ill-will will be able to find a way. But I digress…

So, with that all said, I have zero ill will towards hunters.

What I saw that day in getting to our meeting spot to go riding were not hunters. These guys, gals, and kids were fully decked out in the latest fashions of militia wear. The types of guns I saw on the tail gates of the trucks ranged from handguns, to what looked like machine guns (again, not being a gun expert, I don’t know…but I think I can recognize a high calibre hunting rifle vs. a military issue assault weapon). It was a real eye opener. When I asked my new local buddy what he thought, his answer was pretty much, “Yeah, they look like a bunch of idiots, dressed like that”. But when I pushed it a bit, asking if he wan’t afraid of living in a town around so many guns, he also said, “Do you have any idea how many Mexicans we have coming through he border? We have to protect ourselves!” No word of a lie, those were his words.

As if Mexico was going to invade, and they are all bringing guns.

I don’t think anyone in this thread is going after the hunters. But I also think you’d agree that there are way, way too many guns per capita in the US, and the vast majority are irresponsible gun owners. They aren’t locking it up at night, like you are, they are packing them along in their purses, in the console of their car, concealed in their jacket, or gangsta style, down the front of their pants.

I think most of us want to see immediate action to reverse the tide. If that means making it far more difficult for hunters to own and use their guns, so be it.

That said, Reds, when the Zombie Apocalypse comes, I don’t want you to hold this against me, cause I’m coming over to your place to load up.

 

[bandcamp]

@Reds-16 the reason I shite all over you is because you came out with something to the effect that we have a mental health issue and not a gun issue. It's the same argument that the gun folks throw up all the time…guns don't shoot themselves, people do. It's this type of thinking that is completely backwards.

Of course people pull the trigger. Canada has a mental health issue also. The same can be said for every part of the world. The DIFFERENCE is the ACCESS to the weapon. This has nothing to do with hunters and everything to do with the other 99.9% of the USA. So when I hear about you and your rifles and your buddies rifles I just think you're not engaged in the actual debate.

 

[Dude]

Take your hunting community and put them in a bucket and place them WAY over the other side of the room and let's just say, for arguments sake, that this is a responsible group and we're not going to talk about them again with respect to gun control. Cool?

When you can get to this point let's re-engage and talk about gun control.

I thought this was the best counterpoint in the whole debate. The hunters are the outliers of the gun community down there; hunters are not typically representative of the cultural problem they have. So, yes...put the hunters in a box way over on the other side of the room, and keep them out of the debate, and then move forward logically.