War in, on and over Iraq

[Hands of Stone]

Detroit Rock City

Saddam received the Key to the City of Detroit, 25 or so years ago from the mayor at the time. Saddam donated half a million dollars to a religious group, and was rewarded for his actions.

How can such a generous man be sooo hated by the americans?

hos

 

[Ballbaby]

HOS,

Figures it would be Detroit.

Have you ever been to Detroit? It's almost as bad as Whalley. You don't need a key to Whalley. You can just kick the door in.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

have you noticed that our new Prime Minister

We have a new Prime Minister?

 

[El Jefe]

Reccos:

Save your energy......it is not worth your time to debate American foreign policy with individuals that rely on CNN as their primary form of education and enlightenment.

Thought: Isn't it something that the leader of the most paramount, democratic, free and brave nation has to sneak around the world without telling anybody including his closest political allies and his wife. Talk about freedom.......oh here's an idea...stitch a Canadian flag to his backpack....what a joke!

The American foreign policy's irony and the hippocracy stink as bad as it's Bush.

 

[Gurps]

Funny how the most "democratic" country in the world had their leader appointed by a court.

Wankers.

 

[Fastshow]

Smiles? Gone again?

A few facts bout 9-11 ( by a pakistani journalist)
-We supported Bin Laden and the Taleban for years, and viewed them as freedom fighters against the Russians

-As late as 1998 the US was paying the salary of every single Taleban official in Afghanistan

-There is more oil and gas in the Caspian Sea area than in Saudi Arabia, but you need a pipeline through Afghanistan to get the oil
out.

-UNOCAL, a giant American Oil conglomerate, wanted to build a 1-000-mile long pipeline from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan to
the Arabian Sea.


-UNOCAL spent $10 billion on geological surveys for pipeline construction, and very nicely courted the Taleban for their support in
allowing the construction to begin.

-All of the leading Taleban officials were in Texas negotiating with UNOCAL in 1998.

-1998-1999 - The Taleban changed its mind and threw UNOCAL out of the country and awarded the pipeline project to a company from Argentina.

-John Maresca, vice president of UNOCAL, testified before Congress and said no pipeline until the Taleban was gone and a more friendly
government was established.

-Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July that military action against
Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October.

-Sept. 11, 2001 - WTC disaster.

-Bush goes to war against Afghanistan even though none of the hijackers came from Afghanistan.

-Bush blamed Bin Laden but has never offered any proof saying it's a "secret."

-Taleban offered to negotiate to turn over Bin Laden if we showed them some proof. We refused


-We have a new government in Afghanistan.

-The leader of that government formerly worked for UNOCAL.

-Bush appoints a special envoy to represent the US to deal with that new government, who formerly was the "chief consultant to UNOCAL."

-The Bush family acquired their wealth through oil

-Bush's secretary of interior was the president of an oil company before going to Washington.

-George Bush Sr. now works with the "Carlysle Group" specializing in huge oil investments around the world.

-Condoleezza Rice worked for Chevron before going to Washington.

-Chevron named one of its newest "supertankers" after Condoleezza.

-Richard Cheney worked for the giant oil conglomerate Haliburton before becoming vice president.

-Haliburton gave Cheney $34 million as a farewell gift when he left the company.

-Haliburton is in the pipeline construction business.


-There is $6 trillion worth of oil in the Caspian Sea area.

-The US government quietly announced on Jan 31, 2002 that we will support the construction of the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline.
President Musharraf (Pakistan), and interim leader Karzai, (Afghanistan UNOCAL) announce agreement to build proposed gas pipeline from
Central Asia to Pakistan via Afghanistan. (Irish Times 02/10/02)




America did (as usual) very little fighting themselves in the war, apart from blowing themselves up at every opportunity. The real fighting was mainly done by British troops. It would also come as no great surprise if it turned out to be the SAS who captured Saddam and 'let' the yanks take the glory and make all the inevitable films about their 'win'.

 

[Dude]

Did you pull this off the Aljezeera news page?

For sure, ulterior motives make this all stink so bad- especially the invasion of Iraq, which was why I was not in favor without clear a UN unified mandate.

What I find a stretch is when the conspiracy theorists point out the links between September 11th and the oil issue, then piece together how it is likely that the US attacked itself so that they could have someone else to blame. Now that's a far fetched theory, and a difficult one to swallow at that.

On attacking Afghanistan, it wasn't because OBL is an Afghani, but because the country provided him with the safety and shelter to run his camps.

Could they have attacked Saudi, instead? What would the political ramifications been of that?

 

[Dapotayto]

I don't believe they are trying to say the U.S. has attacked itself in order to justify an attack on Afghanistan, but are saying it was a convenient excuse. As soon as the U.S. announced plans to invade Afghanistan the Russians were crying foul play. They knew, and said it, right then that the Yanks would put a pipeline in to remove the oil from the Caspian Sea after having been thwarted in their prior attempts to do so.

By the way, from BBC.com:

Since Dec. 2 the U.S. military has been engaged in a large-scale sweep, dubbed Operation Avalanche, targeting the south and east of the country. The operation, which involves 2,000 troops and has been billed as the largest since the war ended, was designed in part to put the Taliban on the defensive ahead of the historic constitutional council that began Sunday in the capital.


The operation has been overshadowed by the deaths of 15 children in two attacks earlier this month, including a Dec. 6 raid in which an A-10 warplane was called in to bomb a field in a village in Ghazni province. An adult and nine small children who were playing there were killed.


Lt. Gen. David W. Barno, the commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan, said Thursday that the intended target of the attack, a Taliban district commander named Mullah Wazir, appears to have gotten away.


The "indications are that Mullah Wazir was not killed," Barno told reporters after Myers spoke. Villagers have been saying since the attack that Wazir had left the area days before, but Barno's comment was the first admission by the military to that effect.


Barno added that the military was reviewing how it coordinates such attacks between ground and air forces in an effort to avoid such tragedies in the future.

How many times has something like this happened in Afghanistan and Iraq? How many times will it happen again. Fcuking cnuts, killing kids, civilians and other allied countries soldiers in their attempts at so-called justice.

 

[Dude]

I wasn't referring to this particular article, but if you check out the Aljezzera News site, and other Muslim websites like Madina.com, you'll find some conspiracy theorists that actually believe the September 11th attacks were ordered and executed by the US itself. I know, absurd.

In fairness, on Medina you'll also find the vast majority- if not all- speaking out against OBL and dictators such as Saddam Hussain. While opinion is generally split on weather they favor the US occupation or not, most simply express their sympathies towards the real victims- citizens- and most also feel the US has not done enough to actually help them now and in the past.

 

[vratar]

I doubt the US Bush-govt. really cares how many innocent children and civilians they "slaughter". Its about oil, oil and more oil. If the US had any sense of morals and ethics they wouldnt be firing bombs on suspected targets with the high possibility of striking civilians. Fcuking megalomaniacs.

 

[El Jefe]

Dude:

You seem to be quite certain who is responsible for the 9-11 incident. The open question to you and the American regime is what definitive evidence is there that links Bin Laden or any other radical faction to the horrible crime. As a third person observer I can tell you that other than American government heresay, which is scattered across the world mindlessly by CNN, there is no presented evidence. This then raises the equal possibility that, based on past shady American international spindoctoring, the incident was self inflicted.

Hold on...breathe...think....yes Dude, I think you understand... you were going to ask for the evidence for this irrational line of thinking...........exactly the point....enough said.

ElJefewelcomesopencritcalthinking!

 

[Dude]

Maybe I just find it nearly impossible to believe that the US Government would stoop to such tactics as slaughtering 5,000 of its own citizens, destroying the economic center of world trade, sending its own economy into a recessionary tailspin, and costing itself billions in the process.

It has nothing to do with watching CNN. Maybe if you actually read some of my posts, you'd see that CNN isn't my choice of source for reading material on the subject.

There's critical thinking, then there are over-the-top conspiracy theorists like yourself that will search for anything straw they can to somehow spin something like 9-11 as being a carefully executed American plot, instead of what it actually was: a terrorist attack.

 

[El Jefe]

Dude:


Once again the question that exists in all critical thinkers' minds is who is responsible for 911? Simply outline the evidence that holds an external group responsible. Since you nor anyone else has been able to do just that......the American government will always be suspected as will other organizations.

This my friend is the fact of the matter and not a spin!

 

[Dude]

The truth is out there Mulder.

 

[Smiles]

Love the Show

Fastshow I will take your bait,

I will try to answer many of your statements in your post from the Pakistani Journalist.

1. True, we supported Bin Laden and even Iraq for years. We contiouously try to stop the spread of communism and try to support free societies. We allied with Russia in World War II along with Canada to stop the Germans even though they had a brutal dictator at the time. I don’t see the value in this point. If you once supported a country or a person does this mean you must do this always? We were at war with Canada once should we still be enemies? Useless fact.
2. Not sure if this is true but again what’s the point? We give money to lots of countries. Canada is giving shite loads of cash to Afghanistan now. 20 years from now if Afghanistan turns into a communist state should we bring up the argument the Canada funded it? Another very poor point.
3. That’s great there is lots of oil in the Caspian Sea. I hope U.S. business interests can get a piece of it. As far as the whole oil thing goes we get most of our Oil From?________fill in the blank. CANADA. 75% of our oil comes from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. We have one of the world’s largest untapped oil reserves in Alaska.
4. Fastshow, the next point just blows my mind that you would even cut and paste this in. Bin Laden on tape takes credit for the Sept. 11th attack. All hijackers trained in his camps. Bin Laden and camps are in Afghanistan. Do you see were this is going. Asked Taliban to turn him over. They did not. We went in and stated any country harboring terrorists we are viewing as a threat. We obviously are not ****ing around anymore. Canadian troops are fighting in Afghanistan as well.
5. You list people in the government that have made lots of money in the oil business. This is a plus. I think it is great we have successful people from the private sector running the country. Should we elect failures from the private sector? Fastshow, there really is two types of people in the world; and I feel this also applies to countries; A. The people and or countries that look at the rich or #1 economy in the world and try to learn from there success and try to prosper. Or B. The people and or countries that are envious that other peoples or countries success should be handed to them. Tax hard. Redistribute wealth. I am a victim. Why should I not have what they have? I don’t see people running out of the country, but I do see people every day risking there lives to get in to get a piece of the dream.
6. British troops. Love the British. Most Americas have an ultimate respect for them. No one really cares who caught the butcher the point is he is caught and the British, US, Spain, Italy, Poland, Australia, Japan, and many others onboard helped in one way or another.


Last part for El Jefe
7. Most Americans do not watch CNN. It is not the #1 news in the US. Fox News is #1. CNN is absolute tree hugging BS.
8. I love the Canadian backpack comment. El Jefe you are just as ****ed being a Canadian as an American. I would love to see you hiking the hills of Afghanistan and run into some of these animals with your backpack. If you are an infidel they want you dead. If you are part of the Western world they want you dead. I think you might what to review your idea.
9. I think at all times we should know where all world leaders are and not protect them. Another great Idea. BC Bud can not be that strong? Can it?


By the way most Canadians I talk to about this subject have basically the same thoughts that I do. Is this just a left wing thread or what?

Fastshow Merry Xmas; you bring out the best in me.

Cheers,

Smiles

PS please study over the break one of my earlier posts listed below,; you will be tested.


All the rhetoric on whether or not we should go to war against Iraq
> > has got my insane little brain spinning like a roulette wheel. I
> > enjoy reading opinions from both sides, but I have detected a hint
> > of confusion from some of you.
> >
> > As I was reading the paper recently, I was reminded of the best
> > advice someone ever gave me. He told me about the KISS method ("Keep

> > it Simple, Stupid"). So, with this as a theme, I'd like to apply
> > this theory for those who don't quite get it. My hope is that we
> > can simplify things a bit and recognize a few important facts.
> >
> > Here are 10 things to consider when voicing an opinion on this
> > important
> > issue:
> >
> > 1) President Bush and Saddam Hussein.....Hussein is the bad guy.
> >
> > 2) If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right thing,
> > keep this in mind. They have Libya heading the Committee on Human
> > Rights and Iraq heading the Global Disarmament Committee. Do your
> > own math here.
> >
> > 3) If you use Google Search and type in "French Military Victories,"
>your
> > reply will be "Did you mean French Military Defeats?"
> >
> > 4) If your only anti-war slogan is "No war for oil," sue your school

> > district for allowing you to slip through the cracks and robbing
> > you of the education you deserve.
> >
> > 5) Saddam and Bin Laden will not seek United Nations approval before
>they
> > try to kill us.
> >
> > 6) Despite what some seem to believe, Martin Sheen is NOT the
> > President. He plays one on T.V.
> >
> > 7) Even if you are anti-war, you are still an "Infidel" and Bin
> > Laden wants you dead, too.
> >
> > 8) If you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy," but not in the
>danger
> > that Hussein poses, quit hanging out with the Dell computer dude.
> >
> > 9) We are not trying to liberate them.
> >
> > 10) Whether you are for military action, or against it, our young
> > men
>and
> > women overseas are fighting for us to defend our right to speak out.

> > We all need to support them without reservation.
> >
> > I hope this helps.

 

[El Jefe]

Smiles:

Your elementary rhetoric may work on naive Americans and so, if you could please do so, save it for them.

 

[steve1234]

I'll bite also.

Mr Faststats.
I'd like to know where the stats on who actually did the fighting came from. I was under the impression that since the U.S. was in a mini recession, a war, and the work created by it, was an extra little boost for the economy. Therefore the more men they have out there, the better. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
And el jefe if I was not a naive American, would I put 2 +2 together and conclude that the U.S. Blew up the WTC themselves, and staged the first attempt themselves also. Then call me an elementary thinker also.

 

[Dude]

I was under the impression that since the U.S. was in a mini recession, a war, and the work created by it, was an extra little boost for the economy.

Stupidest misconception out there. No ROI w/ war. No immediate boost at all; anything conceivable would be long, long , long term. If that.

Any oil profits are about corporate profits only.

 

[steve1234]

Stupidest ?

I was under the impression that when troops went oversees they received more money. They also use and destroy military hardware. So the families left behind have more money to spend, and the families of factory workers making munitions have more money, and so on and so on.... The bush admin is giving the war effort another 87 billion, so you can bet they are staying for a while. So I think from a simple economics standpoint the economy must benefit.
Side note. This expenditure is expected to be passed through while an extra 8 billion for education is apparently not available.

 

[Dude]

87 billion of public money that could have been spent on capital expenditures, or paying down the debt.

Simple economics: law of decreasing returns.