TSS commencing an action against the BCSA

KS9

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God forbid somebody else do some research around here...

Ok deep dive it is.

Since you wouldn't name names I decided to stop being "lazy" and figure it out myself and my position remains unchanged.

With the exception of two fifth year players that I could find no info on, here is where everybody on UBC's current roster came from:

Jason Roberts – Unknown (Richmond)
Daniel Kaiser – Whitecaps
Jordan Haynes – Whitecaps
Sam Aiello – Mountain United (HPL)
Jackson Farmer – Whitecaps
Manraj Bains – Whitecaps
Mihai Hodut – Mountain United (HPL)
Ryan Arthur – Kwantlen Polytechnic (Transfer – Originally from Fusion FC HPL)
Victory Shumbusho – Whitecaps
Sean Einarsson – Whitecaps
Mackenzie Cole – Vancouver Island Wave (HPL)
Chris Fisher – Upper Island Riptide (non-HPL)
Kerman Pannu – Surrey United (HPL)
Logan Chung – Whitecaps
Sam Fletcher – Vancouver Island Wave (HPL)
Sebastian Dzikowski – Calgary Foothills
Riley Pang – Whitecaps
Mateo Donelly – Fusion FC (HPL)
Dallin Akune – Fusion FC (HPL)
James Graham – Winnipeg
Andrew Metcalfe – Seattle University (Transfer – Originally from Winnipeg)
Mitch Piraux – Whitecaps
Jora Saran – Surrey United (HPL)
Nick Fussell – Whitecaps
Thomas Gardner – Whitecaps
Rhett Freiter – Calgary Foothills
Luke Griffin – Unkown (Coquitlam)
Chad Bush – Duke University (Transfer – Originally from Ottawa)
Tariq Gareau - Oakville
Stefan Colbow – Mountain United (HPL 2017)

So on a 30 man roster there are 11 from the Whitecaps (residency, U23, USL, etc.) and 6 from other parts of Canada, plus 1 from a non-HPL youth club and 1 from another local University.

That leaves 8 straight out of HPL by my count.

9 if you count Colbow but he appears to have taken a year off before returning to school in which he played men's league for NorVan and, according to sources, he left the UBC program when he was told he would have to play for "Richmond" in Div. 1 with the rest of the reserves.

The two 5th year unknowns (Griffin and Roberts) I assume likely played HPL, but the league would have been in its infancy back then (launched in spring 2012 they would have graduated 2014 at the latest) so it is tough to say for certain as the landscape was different.


UBC lists 10 1st year players on their roster:

Aiello (HPL)
Fisher (non-HPL)
Chung (Whitecaps)
Dzikowski (Foothills)
Donelly (HPL)
Graham (Winnipeg)
Metcalf (Transfer/Winnipeg)
Frieter (Foothills)
Gareau (Ontario)
Colbow (N/A)

Only 2 from HPL (Aiello and Donelly). Neither dressed for a single game this season. As mentioned, I don't think Colbow is with the team, but regardless, he too did not dress for a single game this season.

So the ONLY two players that joined UBC from HPL last season (or three if you include Colbow) spent the entire season as red-shirts.

Maybe the kids will go on to have great UBC careers, but I think it is more likely that they bail on the program.

For the record the two Foothills products (Dzikowski and Frieter) were also complete red-shirts that didn't see the field. Fisher, Graham and Gareau got to play in the last game of the regular season plus got a trip to Nationals. Metcalf, GK, got the start in one regular season game against Victoria as well as in the loser game at Nationals. Chung, the Whitecaps Residency product, was a regular.

Those are the facts. Call it what you want, but I see it as a downturn in HPL recruiting. Again, all I can go off is what Mosher told me personally a couple years back which is that the local U18s were not able to cut it at his level. Take that for what it is worth.

Perhaps part of the motivation of having a VMSL team try and create more opportunity for local U18s to get experience with UBC and ultimately crack the roster. This has been mooted as one of the reasons that team perhaps would want to stay in Division 1 rather than go up to Premier, as it is a development squad.

Circling all the way back around to why did nobody at Fusion, etc. know about this tryout at UBC. Likely because if Mosher is only going to take enough HPL kids that you can count on one hand, he probably already has an idea who they are.

Does the fact that UBC is not taking a vast quantity of players from HPL (on the Men's side) make that league less valuable? That question is up for debate.

As we were then...
I knew you will look into it in detail but I will make some of the corrections and fill in the missing information. I agree there is a decline if you compare the current year with the 2015, 2016,2017 and 2018.


Here are corrections to your list.

Jason Roberts is HPL Fusion 2014 U18 team.

Luke Griffin is also 2014 U18 team of Coquitlam MF HPL.

Manraj Bains is SU U18 HPL. He also played U16 HPL for SU. He spent short time with whitecaps before he got cut. Also couple of players you listed as "Whitecaps" have spent less than year in the academy.

Sean Einarsson is not whitecaps when he came to UBC. He came from Surrey United. He played Whitecaps U23 in off season while on UBC team.


That will take your current year list of HPL players from 8 to 11 and will reduce the Whitecaps list from 11 to 9.

But I noticed is that HPL teams performance in the national championships is directly related to the UBC roster. If you look into 2014, 2015, 2016 HPL teams performance in the national championship it is easy to see why Moser was picking up those players.

Again you can make the statistics show what ever you want but I agree there is decline of HPL players in the current year because BC is not winning at U18 and now they switch to U17 national championship.
 

KS9

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"totally dominated"? Uh, have a look at their current roster. 4 players listed from BCSPL clubs. The rest of the BC players are signed from Whitecaps and men's senior teams.


ps-our best u17-18 (and some u16) should no longer be in BCSPL, they should be playing men's soccer, be that Div 1, Premier, PCSL, USL2.
With Canucks4Ever and myself collected effort has taken the HPL U18 graduated player count from 8 to 11 on the UBC current roster. This is the lowest number compare to last 4 or 5 years

That is a different argument if better 16 or 17 years old should be playing mens soccer or it is better with HPL. Again some players have different priorities, some prefer education while playing highest level of local soccer at university over spending 4 or 5 years in some 5th tier professional environment and still ending up back at university.
If you look at some of the current Whitecaps players age on UBC roster, you will see at that age most are already graduated from school.
 

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Maybe UBC already picked the players (before try-outs) which is OK if UBC has a good scouting system in place.
It would not be the first time that try-outs are being organized just as a formality to satisfy some requirements and collect some money through try-out registrations. If that indeed is the case then attending such try-outs would be a total waste of time (and money).
No. This is for 2003 born players. They don't graduate until 2021.

I couldn't find any info, but I did find UBC women's team ID camp runs 3 days 8am-3:30pm and only costs $100 which seems quite reasonable.

By comparison that University up the mountain runs a pure money making scam every spring with their men's program which costs any "college eligible" players $200 for 2 days 3:30-5:30pm
 

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I knew you will look into it in detail but I will make some of the corrections and fill in the missing information. I agree there is a decline if you compare the current year with the 2015, 2016,2017 and 2018.


Here are corrections to your list.

Jason Roberts is HPL Fusion 2014 U18 team.

Luke Griffin is also 2014 U18 team of Coquitlam MF HPL.

Manraj Bains is SU U18 HPL. He also played U16 HPL for SU. He spent short time with whitecaps before he got cut. Also couple of players you listed as "Whitecaps" have spent less than year in the academy.

Sean Einarsson is not whitecaps when he came to UBC. He came from Surrey United. He played Whitecaps U23 in off season while on UBC team.


That will take your current year list of HPL players from 8 to 11 and will reduce the Whitecaps list from 11 to 9.

But I noticed is that HPL teams performance in the national championships is directly related to the UBC roster. If you look into 2014, 2015, 2016 HPL teams performance in the national championship it is easy to see why Moser was picking up those players.

Again you can make the statistics show what ever you want but I agree there is decline of HPL players in the current year because BC is not winning at U18 and now they switch to U17 national championship.
BCSPL teams are the top tier in BC, yes. But at the national championships Ontario and Quebec are not sending their top tier teams. Their provincial associations (or their respective leagues?) have banned their top tier teams from entering the national championship.
 

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With Canucks4Ever and myself collected effort has taken the HPL U18 graduated player count from 8 to 11 on the UBC current roster. This is the lowest number compare to last 4 or 5 years

That is a different argument if better 16 or 17 years old should be playing mens soccer or it is better with HPL. Again some players have different priorities, some prefer education while playing highest level of local soccer at university over spending 4 or 5 years in some 5th tier professional environment and still ending up back at university.
If you look at some of the current Whitecaps players age on UBC roster, you will see at that age most are already graduated from school.
If they graduated they cannot be on the UBC team.

If those players you listed concluded their youth playing days in BCSPL why is their last club not listed as a BCSPL team?
 

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If they graduated they cannot be on the UBC team.

If those players you listed concluded their youth playing days in BCSPL why is their last club not listed as a BCSPL team?
HPL U18 "graduated" means they play until U18 not play until U16 then go to whitecaps or mens division.

When player were recruited in their first year their last club is listed. Over 5 years these players play for different teams during off season like Whitecaps U23, TSS or some premier team. In some cases that off season team becomes their last team they played for.
 
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"totally dominated"? Uh, have a look at their current roster. 4 players listed from BCSPL clubs. The rest of the BC players are signed from Whitecaps and men's senior teams.


ps-our best u17-18 (and some u16) should no longer be in BCSPL, they should be playing men's soccer, be that Div 1, Premier, PCSL, USL2.
I've felt this way for a long time; issue is that it needs to be club initiated to have that foresight, and I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying most people pulling the administrative strings at the youth level don't have a clear understanding of what it's like to be a player. I know for me, I started playing Men's at 18. I'd lost my two high school years due to a badly broken leg in grade 10, so was completely disconnected from youth. Played that year on a div 2, and called up several times in the year to Div 1. Man, the learning curve was steep and very good. After that into Men's Div. 1 for a couple of years, then tried out for / walked onto my College team after a couple of victory lap years from high school. I know BCCAA back then (1994-1996 in my case) wasn't CIAU / U-Sports, but it was still pretty good with the likes of Cap, Langara, UCFV, Thompson Rivers, TWU, etc.. Most of my teammates were playing the top levels of Youth (two went to Nationals) or U-21 prior to College. Only one other kid has Men's playing experience, a kid who'd come over from the UK and also walked on. For me, the grind of playing Men's, and the fast track education in understanding the game was the difference in being selected, plus a better level of fitness. It sure wasn't my feet! To me at the time, playing College felt different, but certainly not a real step up from Men's Div 1. Faster, sure, but way softer in terms of contact, thus easier to play a "harder" game. The only time I felt like I was behind the pace on the pitch was a friendly against SFU, but the quality different on the field was in every position that day and I'm sure most days against any other BC team with the exception of UBC and maybe UVic. Still I think consensus seems to be the top level of USports is as good or better than the top levels of NCAA II. I'd like to get more feedback on that....

Also, my buddy up here who is the director of Sea-to-Sky / Whistler Youth Soccer had a conversation with me exactly about this. Given our geographical clocation, the kids all have big time challenges just getting to the North Shore for either HPL or Metro. He broached the idea w/ me about entering a Div 2 side into VMSL, stocked with the better and more ambitious players in their grade 11 & 12 years, with the balance being made of of locals that want to play a reasonably competitive level. There are no shortage of UK and Aussie players up here who have played at a good level and still want some competition. It gets busy here on the weekends, so guys are happy to escape to the city and play footy as opposed to fighting crowds on the hill. It's a concept he could for sure pull off. The club actually produces some good talent. All the kids here seem to be national caliber in some sport of another, which makes for some really good, well rounded, ultra competitive athletes. I was shocked at the quality at the soccer club. This concept could help some of the boys prepare for University better than HPL, and give them a chance at a try-out at most universities not named UBC or SFU.

Back to U-Sports of today, obviously UBC is the cream of the crop in our province and arguably Canada, but, what about the other programs? UVic has had a great program over the years. Other additions that have slid over from BCCAA (TRU, TWU, UFV, etc.). I think of the rest, TWU is obviously a good program but due to the private nature of the school and value they place on athletics maybe have a unique advantage. What are parents seeing there? @knvb, your son obviously recruited to TRU I think, how did that come about?
 

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I may have missed something as I read through the thread, but why is the focus of this conversation looking solely at UBC(and some SFU)? Although I don't agree with the BCSPL for a multitude of reasons, many already listed, one of the leagues focuses is to get scholarships and/or get players playing in post secondary. It is not to play on the best team in the country or to win National Championships. This is no different than the the BCJHL on the radio talking about how many of their players have gone on to universities. If players are getting on UFV, TWU or even colleges, it is still providing players (who almost definitely are not going pro) to get an education by using sport.
***I'll admit I did not go through each team to find out how many BCSPL players are on those teams, but I assume more than UBC.***

Secondly, in my opinion UBC is a bit of an anomoly. They are the biggest university in Western Canada and in a city which has an MLS franchise. On top of that, the CIS has significantly less restrictions than the NCAA. A connection between the two systems seems logical, just like the Canucks using UBC for unofficial practices and get goalies in emergency situations.
 
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I may have missed something as I read through the thread, but why is the focus of this conversation looking solely at UBC(and some SFU)? Although I don't agree with the BCSPL for a multitude of reasons, many already listed, one of the leagues focuses is to get scholarships and/or get players playing in post secondary. It is not to play on the best team in the country or to win National Championships. This is no different than the the BCJHL on the radio talking about how many of their players have gone on to universities. If players are getting on UFV, TWU or even colleges, it is still providing players (who almost definitely are not going pro) to get an education by using sport.
***I'll admit I did not go through each team to find out how many BCSPL players are on those teams, but I assume more than UBC.***

Secondly, in my opinion UBC is a bit of an anomoly. They are the biggest university in Western Canada and in a city which has an MLS franchise. On top of that, the CIS has significantly less restrictions than the NCAA. A connection between the two systems seems logical, just like the Canucks using UBC for unofficial practices and get goalies in emergency situations.
No one is saying there's anything wrong with players going to the "tier 2" (for lack of better term) schools. It's just that they were already doing that coming out of the old Metro system. BCSPL was sold as a "High Performance" league meaning that it would be more exclusive, raise the standards, professionalize the environment, and prepare/produce players for a higher level of achievement. All for an added cost of course.

We aren't seeing that. That's the issue. It's the same as it ever was, it just costs more.
 
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@Rosie11 - Definitely no argument that getting into any post secondary with any type of scholarship/financial relief is a good thing. As you said, the majority of the players are not going pro. I was certainly happy to play at the BCCAA/PacWest level back in my day.

But to the point @dezza made - HPL was supposed to be producing a higher calibre of player that was going to facilitate more professional opportunities etc. The local schools were recruiting just fine before HPL. Regarding professional opportunities - maybe HPL was there before the infrastructure and now with CanPL there will be further opportunities.

@Dude it seems like more and more youth clubs (non-HPL) are looking at men's leagues. I think the average age in U21 in the VMSL has to be well below 18. I was approached by a group in Vancouver disillusioned with youth soccer at the U17/U18 level asking about if I knew how they might go about playing in the VMSL.

FYI - You can tell your Whistler Youth people that getting into VMSL Div. 2 is probably unlikely unless they can find a way to merge or "merge" with somebody who has a spot. So it is likely either U21 or Div. 3. TBH if they want to go to the Valley though they can likely play in whatever division they want...
 

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I may have missed something as I read through the thread, but why is the focus of this conversation looking solely at UBC(and some SFU)? Although I don't agree with the BCSPL for a multitude of reasons, many already listed, one of the leagues focuses is to get scholarships and/or get players playing in post secondary. It is not to play on the best team in the country or to win National Championships. This is no different than the the BCJHL on the radio talking about how many of their players have gone on to universities. If players are getting on UFV, TWU or even colleges, it is still providing players (who almost definitely are not going pro) to get an education by using sport.
***I'll admit I did not go through each team to find out how many BCSPL players are on those teams, but I assume more than UBC.***
Just going to jump in here...not really how it works in Canada. Our athletic scholarships are miniscule, at least in all schools not named SFU. Not exactly how it works at SFU. If the kid has great grades, I THINK then the Canadian school can double it up with an acedemic scholarship that will cover tuition and books, not sure about living alowances.

Playing post secondary is a great experience, and I'm sure even better in U-Sports or SFU / NCAA II...but by no means are getting an education by using sport, unless they have the grades to get the academic portion.

Do I have that right?
 
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@Rosie11 - Definitely no argument that getting into any post secondary with any type of scholarship/financial relief is a good thing. As you said, the majority of the players are not going pro. I was certainly happy to play at the BCCAA/PacWest level back in my day.

But to the point @dezza made - HPL was supposed to be producing a higher calibre of player that was going to facilitate more professional opportunities etc. The local schools were recruiting just fine before HPL. Regarding professional opportunities - maybe HPL was there before the infrastructure and now with CanPL there will be further opportunities.

@Dude it seems like more and more youth clubs (non-HPL) are looking at men's leagues. I think the average age in U21 in the VMSL has to be well below 18. I was approached by a group in Vancouver disillusioned with youth soccer at the U17/U18 level asking about if I knew how they might go about playing in the VMSL.

FYI - You can tell your Whistler Youth people that getting into VMSL Div. 2 is probably unlikely unless they can find a way to merge or "merge" with somebody who has a spot. So it is likely either U21 or Div. 3. TBH if they want to go to the Valley though they can likely play in whatever division they want...
I did tell him that, and I think that's his aim, to partner w/ a div. 2 club of some type. Not sure how it's going to play out. I think the level is right, though. I do think in the Valley Div. 2 would be appropriate as well, but that extra bit of travel is tough.
 

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I would say the 'education' comes down to personal decisions. Grades help get you money and into bigger schools, but in U-Sport/CIS a player only needs a 60% average in three classes. It is very possible for a player to get an education, even if they are not the best student, but if there are only there to play, then that's usually what happens.

Also, in in my experience there are always academic benefits to being on sports teams, even if its not financial. Programs usually have tutoring/mentoring programs, access to employment opportunities and the biggest one for me was first registration for classes.
If I were a parent in the BCSPL I would be more concerned with why players aren't getting opportunities to be identified by prairie universities then looking at why UBC isn't taking them.

Just going to jump in here...not really how it works in Canada. Our athletic scholarships are miniscule, at least in all schools not named SFU. Not exactly how it works at SFU. If the kid has great grades, I THINK then the Canadian school can double it up with an acedemic scholarship that will cover tuition and books, not sure about living alowances.

Playing post secondary is a great experience, and I'm sure even better in U-Sports or SFU / NCAA II...but by no means are getting an education by using sport, unless they have the grades to get the academic portion.

Do I have that right?
 
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To reset: UBC was used as an example because they’re holding an evaluation camp (open and not invite-only), they’re a big university, my son plays in the league who’s directive is to feed college and university soccer programs, and neither the league nor the club notified the players/parents of the camp. That’s all. Seems bush league to me and is a real eye opener now that my son is in grade 11 and this is the year the schools look at these kids...it’s kind of a big year don’t you think? More so than ANY other year of youth soccer they play.
 

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To reset: UBC was used as an example because they’re holding an evaluation camp (open and not invite-only), they’re a big university, my son plays in the league who’s directive is to feed college and university soccer programs, and neither the league nor the club notified the players/parents of the camp. That’s all. Seems bush league to me and is a real eye opener now that my son is in grade 11 and this is the year the schools look at these kids...it’s kind of a big year don’t you think? More so than ANY other year of youth soccer they play.
Didn't you say your kid wasn't interested in varsity footy and just plays BCSPL for "the competition?"

but yes, the point still stands all players should have been notified.
 

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