TSS commencing an action against the BCSA

Dude

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Well, I don’t think you can look at just one age group and judge a whole club, BUT, main point being is that the player pool hasn’t increased this how can the number of elite teams. Whether of not we all agree or not on the financial model, the math on the player pool is impossible to refute.

@Rangerforever is still a bigger asshat than Dude.
 
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knvb

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If you were talking to me, I wasn't referring to one age group at all, its all age groups I witnessed parents that are completely, shopping in walmart wearing pajamas, insane. Intake to 18.

The rest I agree with. Including the size of RF's ass.

hat
 

Canucks4Ever

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Was involved in coaching with HPL for a bit and it was a zoo as @knvb describes with parents shopping their kids around to get them on a team where little Johnny or little Stacey will be a star. To the point @dezza made, those who can afford it don't bat an eye at the fees or the ones who can almost afford find a way to make it work by stretching the budget. There are some internal mechanisms to ensure no player is "excluded" because of inability to pay (this was a mandatory feature of the program when it came out) but, realistically, the question is how many kids are not even bothering to have a look because it is an exclusive pool already?

Certified coaches is a plus, and if there is one thing that I will give HPL at least some credit for it is a boom in coaching resources and clinics. More clubs are getting their players involved as coaches at a young age and, because of the demand for "certified" coaches, more and more volunteer parents are at least getting some level of coaching education. However, at the top levels it is still just the political carousel of coaches going from club to club bring players with them or not, etc. etc. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Nobody goes from U13 to U18 in HPL and then makes the jump to pro. If they do not get picked up by Whitecaps or another professional set up by 15 or 16 (even before) then it is likely not going to happen for them. Will they still get a college scholarship? Sure. The local schools need a pool to draw from, but the metro kids were going there back in the day, so it is tough to credit HPL with this "development".

HPL is too much of a "status" to brag to the other parents at the PTA about... If your kid wants to play university soccer and they are good enough they can get there without HPL. If they are next level good they will be given other opportunities long before they spend any significant amount of time in HPL.

The league was supposed to be an exclusive pool of talent that was small enough to showcase to US and other "path to pro" markets. Maybe they are thinking that now that there are more Canadian markets (ie CPL) that they can expand and start farming players out to those academies???

I agree though...this just seems too watered down now and I cannot reason out why this is happening other than a cash grab. These teams went through the extensive CSA "Club Licensing" process, likely at significant cost as well, so how can BCSA now say they are not top level clubs???

#ClusterFcuk
 

Dude

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If you were talking to me, I wasn't referring to one age group at all, its all age groups I witnessed parents that are completely, shopping in walmart wearing pajamas, insane. Intake to 18.

The rest I agree with. Including the size of RF's ass.

hat
No, the child.
 

ThiKu

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TBH I am completely fence sitting on this whole topic. Pretty much I come back to what Regs said: essentially what we have now is the Metro league, what it was originally established and intended for. I'm wondering why "all this" had to happen, the BCPL I mean, when we could have stuck with the system in place and mandated a professionally certified and compensated coaching staff. Possibly with the existing system in place, with improvements, the issue of player cost-to-play could have been better addressed, and identification of the best players, not just the best players who's parents could afford the financial burden.

Indeed, where does the Metro league fall right now? What's the point in calling it Metro? Why not simply BCPL, then Div. 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.? Why is everyone afraid of numbers? Are parents really so afraid to say their kid plays Div. 2 instead of Metro? Fcuk me....just call it what it is, and come out with a very simple flow chart that explains what should occur at each level. Give a guideline for coaches and parents, stick to it. Have a system of player promotion and demotion, stick with it. No more parent run teams that keep all the kids together for their whole youth careers in order to foster friendships. Fcuk that. Two or three players, every year, should be demoted, and the same number promoted. Have it mandated. No more blocking player pathways because a coach is afraid of cutting a player down. FFS, Azzie had no problem cutting me in favor of Guliano! (well, nobody would, lets be honest). Back then if we were cut from metro to Gold, we knew what team we were going to, and who the coaches were. Those coaches in turn recommended three or four players twice a year to go up to the Metro team for a look, or in the summer, a much longer trial period. It seemed to work.

I don't have an issue w/ TSS being brought into the fold. Really, how different are they now than the academies at Surrey United et all where elite level development occurs? The fact they aren't a community club? Really, I just see it as another option. I'm happy Langley got a spot only because I have a soft spot for the club and feel they should be in the same discussion as the other member franchises.

Here is the real issue: it's not necessarily scholarships. More BC players are now landing spots on University squads in BC because there are simply more squads. SFU, UBC, UVic, and all the CCAA Squads 20 years ago still needed to stock their players, and most were local. Nothing has changed in that respect. More players are landing down South due to easier identification and discovery, which has come w/ technology and improvements in communication. What we still aren't doing is placing more players into the National program. It's less now, much less. That, I think (hope), will change as CPL becomes more established and puts more players in the shop window, as well as (hopefully) a regional Tier 3 league.

I do like Mr. Berry's letter, though. Asks all the right questions in a thoughtful manner. He is delicately calling out the political game within the game, and I'm sure he's right to do so.
Bless you, Dude. I am gonna reply, because I agree :)

Why create BCSPL? For the reasons you mentioned actually. The metro board/clubs at that time were unwilling to make the changes that came in with BCSPL. BCSPL was necessary for that reason. Also, because Metro had too many teams, and thus too many crap teams and too many crap players. BCSPL was intended to streamline this and it achieved that. Expanding to 12-15 (you can be sure 3 more will apply for '21 now - CCB, SFC, Port Moody are my guess) and we're back to bloody square one. Folly.

Pricing of BCSPL? Agree. Ridiculous. Waste of money for 99% of the players in the league. Play metro. Have a great time. Play good level, play a lot of minutes, play college soccer anyway. If BCSPL was $1500, you might get me on board. But we all know where the majority of the costs are going, and no one in that league can say "I produced these players for that national team and that pro club." The league is asking parents to pay for a myth, and the parents have bought in like sheeple. I agree with the concept of BCSPL 100%! I disagree with the cost 100%. I definitely recommend and help my players get to BCSPL if that's their goal. I give them all the advice, and support that I can because it's their decision, not mine. It's my job to help them achieve their goals. Just to be clear.

Name of divisions? Absolutely!!! Been saying this for ages. Just call it what it is. While you are at it scrap this 1A and 1B, BS. The teams in 1B are always a level below the teams in 1A, which means the 1B teams are not Div 1 level! Just be honest with yourselves, clubs, players and parents.

Langley and TSS? I agree. Great inclusions in BCSPL. But you can't tell me there aren't 2 clubs that should be removed. I don't know anything about North Van or VU outside of rumour/twitter. What I hear is excellent though. I can think of 2 more clubs who they could replace. Clubs should NOT be anointed BCSPL or metro level. Perform consistently over the 5 age groups, or be removed from the league. If not that, then make it open to each year and gender that different clubs who meet performance standards get entry. Those that don't meet the standards get dropped. Make the change after the Phase 1 season, and review again after Phase 2. Teams getting smoked? Drop to metro. Teams winning in metro up they go. It's not rocket science. Boo hoo someone loses a chance to win the "A" cup (which isn't even the bloody A cup in reality) because they were moved up to BCSPL.

CPL probably won't improve/change our entries into national teams. Remember all the other provinces will or already have CPL clubs too. That said, CPL clubs are not signing kids from Surrey United, they are signing kids from the Whitecaps.

Mr. Berry's letter is excellent IMO.
 
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ThiKu

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No @Dude, more players from bc are not heading south on scholarships, at least on the men's side.

That's the point of asking that question. If you are in whitecaps residency you are practically guaranteed one, but if you are in bcspl you are chopped liver.

Once it becomes clear you won't make Caps there is literally no point staying in bcspl.
YUP! Exactly this. And the scholarships kids from BCSPL get for Canadian universities essentially cover books and parking, sort of. Play metro, play on good summer teams (men's most likely) walk-on trial, get into the university first team and still get offered a "scholarship" such as they are.
 
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ThiKu

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Thanks.

I was under the (misguided I guess) impression that we were getting more players South, albeit never the impression is has been a tidal wave more. I guess that impression came from my time w/ Surrey United and SFC, but I'm dating myself now. Small sample size even then.

Also, it's an easy argument to make, I'm sure, for the vast amount more "elite development" and professional coaching we have, we have not seen a commensurate increase in players going South. I suppose it's all the same situation: coaches down South will look for local kids first, and prefer them. It's not like the Americans haven't been keeping up on the whole soccer academy craze themselves.
Not true. American NCAA div 1 teams are multi-national! They are scouring videos and applicants from across the planet and giving trials to young adults from across the planet to play for them. We aren't going south to NCAA div 1 because we aren't good enough, outside the Whitecaps. Female players go south far more often than boys because of the scholarship offers NCAA can offer women. I don't know the details. I just know it's more females. I can't recall the last boys BCSPL player that was announced as going to NCAA div 1. Has it happened? Plenty of Whitecaps of course, and rightly so.

That said, many may be offered NCAA spots but not enough to cover the massive costs to be a foreign student. I was offered a 50% scholarship for a div 3 school down there many decades ago, and I still would have had to pay about $50k American! Didn't go, obviously.
 

ThiKu

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But then why are so many more Ontario kids getting those opportunities?

Vaughan Azzurri had 4 of their graduates move to NCAA and then get picked in this years MLS draft. That's just one club and one draft year!

Sigma academy produced Larin, Laryea, etc
They are much better. Just look at the national youth finals - those teams from Ontario (and I think QC) are not even the top tier clubs. The top tier clubs from those provinces aren't allowed to attend the national youth finals. The top players from their top tier clubs, such as Larin and Laryea are now populating professional clubs and national teams.
 

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Just to sort of check on my assumptions, one of my employees is heavily involved in baseball in Langley.

To give an example, the Blaze, if you make the squad, have 100% placement of kids into US Universities. 100%!

There are 14 or so BC Premier Baseball teams (grades 11&12 I think), and not all have those numbers, but most have very positive placement numbers.

In the case of the Blaze, I’m told:
  • 100% placement to scholarship universities.
  • Ownership is actually employed by Milwaukee Brewers.
  • Every year all or most BCP teams go down to several showcases in the US.
  • Costs is about $4500 per year, and that includes all “in season”, all winter training, all spring training. Travel extra.
  • Kids that get selected to the National program get a ~$10K bonus cheque.
  • Kids from all over the country try-out of the Blaze; he figures about 60% on the team are made up of BC born players.

He explains the big thing is the connections. In this case, it’d be like a top level German or EPL team having ownership stakes in the BCPL club, and facilitating the connections to showcase the kids in front of actual scouts.

Baseball has the obvious geographical advantage; the best baseball league on the planet and best post secondary development system is directly South of us, not overseas. However, Baseball development in BC is definitely “standing out from the crowd”; from the rest of Canada, and it’s certainly on the Map in the US. The Blaze, doing what they have, have put a spotlight on the rest of these BC Teams.

I find it to be a pretty interesting comparison.

The cost is comparable, but if the kid is on the Blaze, and he keeps his grades up, he will win a scholarship, at least. Maybe he’ll be drafted. That’s immediate payback.
wow! kids from all over Canada? And NCAA university placement - is this 100% scholarship as well? Short of that these families still have to have the money.

$4500? What if a kid makes the team but can't pay?

The description of this program suggests to me $4500 is worth it if your kid is outstanding at baseball, and has the grades to go to university.
 
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ThiKu

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I challenge anyone who has a kid who makes an BCSPL team say no to him or her.
In general, you will do it and you will pay for it.

I personally have never once seen a kid turn it down because his/her parents couldn't afford it.
I'm sure it happens but never once have I seen a kid in a lower level team who should be playing in the HPL.

All other points here have merit but do not tell me you're going to say no to your kid when its their dream to play at the highest level locally, regardless of post secondary or professional ambitions.

And players in the BCSPL do go on to scholarships.
Maybe not NCAA Div 1, agreed on that as I recall a lot of those schools wouldn't even begin discussions with my kid unless he was in the Whitecaps or Canadian National program.
And no matter how good, there will always be a bias to take the American kid over the Canadian kid.
Happens in Europe too.
But loads of Div 2/3/NAIA and Canadian schools definitely consider BCSPL players.
IF BCSPL is around, and functioning same in 11-15 years when my little one gets there I promise you I'll be saying no unless my kid is obviously the best of the best (so then moving to Whitecaps). And it wouldn't be me determing if my kid is that good, it'll be others telling me so. The nearest club to me though is 45 minutes one-way. If I lived in same city as a club, I might have a different answer.
 
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ThiKu

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Was involved in coaching with HPL for a bit and it was a zoo as @knvb describes with parents shopping their kids around to get them on a team where little Johnny or little Stacey will be a star. To the point @dezza made, those who can afford it don't bat an eye at the fees or the ones who can almost afford find a way to make it work by stretching the budget. There are some internal mechanisms to ensure no player is "excluded" because of inability to pay (this was a mandatory feature of the program when it came out) but, realistically, the question is how many kids are not even bothering to have a look because it is an exclusive pool already?

Certified coaches is a plus, and if there is one thing that I will give HPL at least some credit for it is a boom in coaching resources and clinics. More clubs are getting their players involved as coaches at a young age and, because of the demand for "certified" coaches, more and more volunteer parents are at least getting some level of coaching education. However, at the top levels it is still just the political carousel of coaches going from club to club bring players with them or not, etc. etc. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Nobody goes from U13 to U18 in HPL and then makes the jump to pro. If they do not get picked up by Whitecaps or another professional set up by 15 or 16 (even before) then it is likely not going to happen for them. Will they still get a college scholarship? Sure. The local schools need a pool to draw from, but the metro kids were going there back in the day, so it is tough to credit HPL with this "development".

HPL is too much of a "status" to brag to the other parents at the PTA about... If your kid wants to play university soccer and they are good enough they can get there without HPL. If they are next level good they will be given other opportunities long before they spend any significant amount of time in HPL.

The league was supposed to be an exclusive pool of talent that was small enough to showcase to US and other "path to pro" markets. Maybe they are thinking that now that there are more Canadian markets (ie CPL) that they can expand and start farming players out to those academies???

I agree though...this just seems too watered down now and I cannot reason out why this is happening other than a cash grab. These teams went through the extensive CSA "Club Licensing" process, likely at significant cost as well, so how can BCSA now say they are not top level clubs???

#ClusterFcuk
Well said. Very well said.
 

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Thiku, as a parent and one that played at a descent level I haven’t bought in one bit. However this is the pathway, do a stand firm and no doubt limit my child. As you know bucket loads of parents are doing all the extras now. You feel a need to keep up and give your child the best opportunities.

Personally I rather it be Metro, with Boundaries. Eliminate all this crap with families jumping from club to club. The politics are worse then ever and we’ve lost sight for the kids first mentality. This is about building people. They certainly aren’t developing pro players. Maybe my kid makes it maybe he doesn’t. Maybe next year. But this is his competitive pool for the age group. Build community, friendship. These are local non profit clubs it least mine is and not pro clubs.

It’s a joke. I personally don’t trust the people in charge. TDs are making big big money. And some of the stuff going on can only be described as criminal. Well before BCSPL Rep for 7 year olds? I’m rating 6 year olds am I? Oh and Academy is the expectation for those 7 year olds. That’s the tip of the iceberg with what goes on. I’d take a dad coaching with some knowledge over the stuff I’m seeing.
 

Dude

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wow! kids from all over Canada? And NCAA university placement - is this 100% scholarship as well? Short of that these families still have to have the money.

$4500? What if a kid makes the team but can't pay?

The description of this program suggests to me $4500 is worth it if your kid is outstanding at baseball, and has the grades to go to university.
I didn't get that far in my questioning, I will ask him, because it seems to me that baseball would have the same challenges as soccer, meaning many families come from under the 1% demographic.

But yes, I came away with the same conclusion: $4500 is a minuscule investment into pushing the athlete onto a full ride, or even better- National team selection of getting himself drafted into a professional organization. Also seems like you just get more, it's basically a full year of coaching / playing. As he says, the facilities are rough, but they have indoor set-ups where kids can come all winter to hit, or throw, and get professional instruction. "I'll bring you down there man, you'll think it's like Compton compared to those nice pitches you have up in Willoughby!"
 

Dude

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Not true. American NCAA div 1 teams are multi-national! They are scouring videos and applicants from across the planet and giving trials to young adults from across the planet to play for them. We aren't going south to NCAA div 1 because we aren't good enough, outside the Whitecaps. Female players go south far more often than boys because of the scholarship offers NCAA can offer women. I don't know the details. I just know it's more females. I can't recall the last boys BCSPL player that was announced as going to NCAA div 1. Has it happened? Plenty of Whitecaps of course, and rightly so.

That said, many may be offered NCAA spots but not enough to cover the massive costs to be a foreign student. I was offered a 50% scholarship for a div 3 school down there many decades ago, and I still would have had to pay about $50k American! Didn't go, obviously.
What you say is true, but still, most Universities will favor the local kids, and I'm sure for optics it's not good to have an uneven balance of "non-American" kids on a team. These programs are all propped up by boosters, after all, and there is a fine balance between winning at all costs and supporting American kids. So, for Canadians it's the same old story of having to be heads and shoulders better to earn that spot, we have always been salmon trying to swim upstream in our sport, which is why I have so much respect for anyone who has played professionally in the era prior to MLS. Even in the MLS era, as we have seen, being Canadian and good does not necessarily guarantee you a spot against some of the internationals brought in.
 
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Dude

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It’s a joke. I personally don’t trust the people in charge. TDs are making big big money. And some of the stuff going on can only be described as criminal. Well before BCSPL Rep for 7 year olds? I’m rating 6 year olds am I? Oh and Academy is the expectation for those 7 year olds. That’s the tip of the iceberg with what goes on. I’d take a dad coaching with some knowledge over the stuff I’m seeing.
This.

In fact, the last year my son played was his first year in academy. I was seeing all the BS first hand, being asked to be part of it, and just didn't agree with any of it. I certainly didn't agree with the assertion that being in academy was the best pathway into a higher caliber rep team. Really? Academy should be strictly about learning, and you should be evaluated completely independently of your academy participation or non-participation. In reality, that's not how it goes and we all know it. He was getting pretty good, but playing hockey as well, and also getting into racing. He had to choose between hockey and soccer because it was just too much. He wanted to do both, but I think part of that was because we got to spend a lot of time together at soccer as I coached. In the end, he sheepishly told me, "I like soccer, but I love hockey." That was it. And, for a kid who loved hockey, never played higher than house. Could he have? Maybe. Certainly in his later years as his skating was well above the house level, but he never showed the desire to play higher, and mostly, work on his game outside the rink. He did do that with racing, was on his race bike all the time without being pushed. So, for us, it was easy to just let natural progression take him wherever it would.
 
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Dude

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@Regs and anyone else who did play Div 1 (I think you did Regs, at least for a year? California?)

What was the recruitment and selection process like back then? What was offered / received so far as scholarship?

Yes, the Canadian scholarship is hardly a scholarship. I think mine was about $1200 or so. Covered books, some tuition. It was very basic. I think some of the other Canadian scholarships are combined w/ academic, but, well, let's say I wasn't quite on the academic radar.

Would love to hear some first hand feedback.
 

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It'll be interesting to see the impending fights and complaints start flying in the valley when LUSA, Fraser Valley, Surrey United and CFC start fighting over the same now smaller pool of 'top' players. It's already cut throat. I wonder which club will think outside the box to attract and keep the players because other than a few hundred bucks here or there, they're the same and there is no loyalty. Zero. Little Dude at Langley sits on the bench for 10 mins longer than the next kid he's off to save the next closest club in a heart beat.

My kid is in the last year of it, and it was seriously, I'm looking for the right word, disheartening maybe? watching parents anxiety and rage sore at the start of every phase, scrambling furiously from club to club to be included or better positioned.

They're literally all swapping disgruntled players and coaches as it is. I wonder if they'll bring back boundaries?
Question for you...both your kids are pretty good as I understand it. Mom's & Milkman's genes, obviously.

You get a pretty interesting perspective because, one boy, one girl. What has been the chatter about your son's immediate next steps both in the game and academically (or not?)? I'm sure your daughter is starting to consider her next career move in the game?
 

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What you say is true, but still, most Universities will favor the local kids, and I'm sure for optics it's not good to have an uneven balance of "non-American" kids on a team. These programs are all propped up by boosters, after all, and there is a fine balance between winning at all costs and supporting American kids. So, for Canadians it's the same old story of having to be heads and shoulders better to earn that spot, we have always been salmon trying to swim upstream in our sport, which is why I have so much respect for anyone who has played professionally in the era prior to MLS. Even in the MLS era, as we have seen, being Canadian and good does not necessarily guarantee you a spot against some of the internationals brought in.
Count the in-state locals... (you'll notice they are mostly given numbers in the 20s because they are bottom portion of the roster who don't actually play)

Syracuse (New York): https://cuse.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/2019
Wake Forest (North Carolina): https://godeacs.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster
Akron (Ohio): https://gozips.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/2019
UNC (North Carolina): https://goheels.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster
UNM (New Mexico): https://golobos.com/roster.aspx?path=msoc


Should I go on?
 

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