The Sniper

[Dude]

I guess it depends on whom you speak with. It more likely that politicians and political candidates oppose the death penalty for political reasons. Unless one has a very strong platform and already high popularity, campaigning on the use of the death penalty is political suicide (much like Stockwell Day's stance against abortion).

Speaking with my Conservative, racial tolerant colleague in Seattle today, he feels everyone should be packing a fire arm down there, just so they can "take care of" people like this on the street. That seems to be a common opinion held by many of the Yank Conservatives in my business.

I count this guy as a pretty good friend, but sometimes I just have to hang up the phone and shake my head at the complete absurdity of his comments. It’s getting crazy down there.

 

[Reccos]

Guns and Capital Punishment

The idea of guns as a constitutional right is sacrosanct to far too many Americans. This notion of having to be armed to protect oneself is daft, but is so intertwined with their history. Most of these dumb fcuks wouldn't know what to do with their gun if confronted with some crook. You sure as hell don't want to have one under your pillow at night, so that you shoot your kid who comes into to tell you he's ill .

I also worked with a guy at VPD who, years ago, came home for dinner to see his wife and kids as he was working as a detective on some big case and put in extra hours. He was only going to be there for a short time so didn't empty and lock his gun (usually put the cuffs back of the trigger if loaded). His four year old, who I later met as a young adult, shot and killed one of the other kids while he was eating. Even smart cops lock up their guns, along with their daughters.

The American gun lobby though, has done a great job of making people believe that if they give up their rights to own whatever guns they want, that it is only a matter of time before they are disarmed and then totally defenceless as a state and nation. Down there, states rights are very strong and the local National Guard is the insurance policy against the powerful federal government intruded on their rights. Or something like that.

 

[Keeper]

Raise all the reasons you like, but you can hinge the entire argument against CP on one issue alone. In a moral and ethical society, it is insanely hypocritical to create and enforce laws to combat murder while promoting government sponsored killing. But then, I suppose people for CP would teach their children not to hit other kids and then beat them for disobeying.

 

[Reccos]

Keeper - Well Said

A thoughtful, rational comment!!! Brilliant to be precise.

 

[Dude]

But then, I suppose people for CP would teach their children not to hit other kids and then beat them for disobeying.

First of all, Keeper, why don't you actually raise a child before calling yourself qualified on what it takes to do so? It's the toughest and most important job in our society- certainly a lot tougher than taking a few too many courses at University. On the other hand, it is pretty easy to comment from the cheep seats.

Brilliant to be precise.

Brilliant? That was one of the stupidest things Keeper has ever written (usually he actually has a useful comment). If you can't separate one issue from another, there is no point on debating it. I suppose you could say the same thing about Reccos: he must beat his children if he supports abortion, right?

Fcuking idiot.

 

[Reccos]

Dude has lost it.....

Dude:

The kids driving you crazy this morning? Wife not going to let you go to the TTP races tonight?

I hardly think one needs to have children to make the point that Keeper is making about the kind of society we want and the kind of values that should reflect a moral and ethical society.

Keeper may have stayed up too late at nights reading and pondering the thoughts of the German philosopher, Marcus Dressel, but at least we can say something stuck from his public education.

Dude: you actually might find the works of Dressel of assistance in forming a clear perspective on society and morality.

 

[Keeper]

These university seats aren't quite so "cheep", really.

Alright, Dude, since I don't have any children of my own to pummle, let me try to put it in a way you might understand.

According to your logic, our justice system should:

• Steal a thief's belongings. Don't just take back what he stole, but liberate him of his life savings -- if he has any.
• Convict an arson. Then burn down his house. No reform: just retribution.
• Fine a public urinator and piss in his livingroom.
• Sell drugs to a pusher's children.
• Organize gang-bang sessions and anally rape convicted rapists (no wait, I guess suppose we already do . . .)

'Cheep', 'cheep',
Keeper.

 

[Dude]

I think you’re taking the “eye for an eye” theory a little bit far. Then again, you’re all about theories, and not real like experiences.

Tell me Reccos the Baby Killer (like the sound of that?): do all those cops out there whom support the Death Penalty beat there children too? How about John? By yours and the Keeper’s logic, they surely must.

BTW Reccos: We played at Chilliwack last night, which is why I wasn’t at the races. I was posting early this morning because my 3-year old son woke me up at 4:00 AM, asking me to tell him “all about how trees grow”. Excuse me if some lifetime student with no real world experience pisses me off when he accuses me of beating my children. You guys may be bleeding heart liberals, but that doesn’t give you the right to make false accusations, even if it were in the form of a piss take.

 

[Reccos]

Races are tonight

Dude: get off the couch you lazy fcuk and head to Fraser Downs where you can get pissed and expound your theories against us liberals and baby killers!!!

 

[Keeper]

Apparently there has been confusion. Allow me to restate my 'logic' for the masses.

Calling for the death penalty is akin to people who tell children not to hit others and then hit their children.

People who are for CP are not necessarily child beaters. If they were, then I'd probably be calling my brother a child beater -- of course, I'm not.

P.S. Are we the only three who have an opinion on this?

 

[the power]

Without getting caught up in the high emotions on this thread, to me, the thought of a government or court having the power to end a person's life takes their control too far.
I agree with the other reasons Reccos gave for why the death penalty is wrong, but the sum of those still doesn't add up to the notion of government/court approved control of our lives.
Dude, since neither myself nor anyone I know has been affected by a Ertmoed/Olsen/Picton type person, I admit that I can't honestly say that my feelings on the subject would remain the same if I had been affected. I hope that they would be, but I can't judge myself on something that hasn't happened.
In short, LIFE = GOOD DEATH = BAD

 

[Aves]

dude, your over-reaction to some of the comments here (quit calling me a child beater!!!) is similar to the emotional reaction which guides many proponents of CP. It is understandable , but not right, or wise to hurt someone who has hurt you. This undoubtedly leads to the escalation of violence. We teach this to our children. On many levels I would like to see murderers die ( assuming we wouldn't make a mistake) but on a purely moral sense...how can we kill when we say it is wrong to do it?
How does that mixed message create a more moral society?

 

[Dude]

The past two posts are both good explanations on your views. Yeah I was pissed at Keeper's comment, and why shouldn't I have been? It was a careless generalization, and Reccos jumping on board just for the sake of pushing my buttons wound me up even more.

That said, I stand by my personal belief . I think that certain heinous crimes warrant the Death Penalty. I've already gotten into some of the reasons, and to completely outline what is worthy and what isn't would be an exercise in futility. Obviously, this is an emotional subject. I also know I'm not the only one that feel this way...perhaps just the only one silly enough to make my views known.

BTW: I accept that I am being hypocritical on this issue. I have no problem with that. Just like Reccos could be labeled (by some) a hypocrite for opposing CP while supporting abortion. Some issues are important enough to us all where we sometimes need to accept the fact that we are hypocrites, and just move on and continue discussing.

 

[Jinky]

originally posted by Dude,

It was a careless generalization

Would you be the pot or the kettle then?

 

[Reccos]

Dude:

First off. I love to wind you up!!!! You are always one to rise to a discussion and that is good. If it wasn't that way, why post.

I don't think it is being hypocritical to believe in a woman's right to choose an abortion, or not to have one, and still not believe in capital punishment. A hypocrite says one thing while doing another. I have made my views clear on both issues so I am not saying one thing and doing another.

What is hypocritical with the abortion issue is the religious zealots who believe that shooting doctors doing abortions is a proper way to treat these "murderers". Now that is total hypocrisy.

I have considered both issues carefully over the years and reached what for me, is a sensible view. Now Canada in law has reached the same conclusions as have most civilized nations in the world.

When I realized some years ago, that the number one killer of young women from 15 to 21 in countries that did not allow abortion, was back alley abortions, I changed my mind about a woman's right to choose. In the name of preservation of life, countries ensured that these young women died at the hands of butchers with coat hangers, or they tried to do it themselves and got maimed or died.

Abortion was illegal, and a criminal offence, in Canada until I believe, 1970. A Vancouver Police member who I worked with in the mid 1970s told me his story of how he dealt with the problem knowing that he risked losing his career along with a criminal conviction. He and his wife had several children and he accidentally got her pregnant during a period of severe emotional problems that her doctor felt could very likely lead to suicide or harm to the children, if she had this baby. In those days, if you had money, you went to Bellingham and got it done there. He didn't as he was a young, not well paid constable in those days.

He knew that there were a few doctors doing them quietly in Vancouver but he didn't know who, and as a cop, who would tell him. He went to a then prominent member of the media, who, despite risking a jail sentence himself, made all the arrangements for him, completely on trust as my friend didn't know him. This guy has now died but he made it very clear to me many times that this was his only way out or he doesn't know what she might have done. She was fine after that. When things like this happen, it modifies one views.

I don't believe state murder should be an emotional issue. An emotional response to a murder is one thing, much like Aves saying that on some levels he feels that murderer should die, however, he more thoughtfully assesses his position and concludes that capital punishment is wrong.

So Dude, when we getting the thread on abortion??

 

[Dude]

What is hypocritical with the abortion issue is the religious zealots who believe that shooting doctors doing abortions is a proper way to treat these "murderers". Now that is total hypocrisy.

I agree 100%. For the record, I'm actually on the same page as you are on abortion, although I likely wouldn't participate in that thread. I was just making an equally ridiculous comment to the Keepers to make my point.

Anyhow, we've pretty much hashed this one out.

Jinky- clearly I'm the kettle . Do you have a viewpoint you're balsy enough to share?

 

[Reccos]

America is Great

Now the states are fighting each other as they are pissed that Montgomery County in Maryland- where the shooting started and where they had the most victims- has laid their charges first. What pisses them off is that they aren't using the death penalty there and never for a 17 year old.

I heard some legal bozo in Virginia say they should be charged there as they can get the death penalty there faster and more surer!

 

[Jinky]

originally posted by Dude

"Jinky....Do you have a viewpoint you're balsy enough to share?"

Actually Dude, I do.

However, unlike you, I don't feel the need to post every thought that comes into my head.

 

[Regs]

I don't feel the need to post every thought that comes into my head.

And all TTPers should be thankful for that

~Regs.

 

[Jinky]

True dat.