Teachers: Do they deserve more money?

[willis316]

Agreed on that. It is proirities. Sports over school in most cases. Mostly because it keeps little JOhnny out of the house a few more hours. To answer the question yes. Everyone thinks it, so there is really no debate on it.

 

[willis316]

One other thing in terms of the talk of a privitized system. (Wouldn't the Libs love that) It seems to me in would not work because teaching is so subjective. What would be the basis for performance??? A's given??? In that case I could give out 35 quite easily (not large class size number) Maybe standardized test scores. In that case I will make sure all the low kids are sitting by high performing ones and I will teach to the test only while working on mutiple guess strategies and memorization of facts. How do we judge good teaching? Everyone had a teacher they thought sucked but that teacher may have been great to other kids. I think the BCTF is not going in the right direction but I like my pension and beneifts thank you. If you think their would still be there with no union then why did locals have to ask for them. Why didn't districts just volunteer them to us. HMMMM. On a final note I am kid of sick of the Liberal selling everything off anyway. Our gas is this year's flavour. What is next our water, air, health, education. What ever is is I am sure the US is buying if it benefits them. And al long as it is note better than the softwood they make down there.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

That said, what really annoys me during any work action is hearing about (some) parents who complain more about the lack of sports or other extracurricular activities available for their child than about the lack of interim reports or phone calls home.

That seriously annoys you? Less work for the teachers who do nothing in terms of sports.....it is our in our job description to send interim reports/make formal/informal contact with parents so they wouldn't ask for more of that. It is NOT our obligation to do the extracurricular activities. Some teachers, like myself, enjoy the coaching and feel that using a 'work to rule' campaign is completely unfair to the kids and teachers/coaches who enjoy what they do.


Decent teachers keep parents informed no matter what the circumstances are. The ones who try to hide behind the union and say "I'm not doing that" when in fact they have never really been doing it anyway, can get to ****.

It's the parents who say that the school is not offering enough in extra-curricular activities, when in fact the school is offering a PLETHORA of activities to the kids, that I have a problem with.....Too many don't research before their complaining. Thank God I'll NEVER be a parent like that............


Hail Hail

 

[J_B]

There have been many valid points made from both sides of this question. As a student heading into my B.Ed at UBC this coming September I have a question to ask the current teachers like Skip and Captian. It is great that you put all this extra work in outside of school in the form of coaching and such. However if the union decided to pay teachers for doing such a thing don't you think that some would just do it for money sake?

I have every intention to coach outside of school and hopefully make some of the kids where I teach as bad as a player as I am. However those who may know nothing about sports may then be inclined to take this task(because of money) and then how does the athletic department or principal assign a head coach if many applicants are wanting to coach one particular team?

Cheers
JB

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

Many parents go to such extremes with sports because sports may be their child's ticket to a university scholarship. School sports need to be seen more than just as an extra-curricular benefit. Not everybody goes to school to become a doctor or lawyer.

I applaud those teachers who get involved in extracurricular activities in schools. They are what define schools. I guarantee that if the top "academic" schools in the province stated that they would focus solely on academics and were no longer offering extra-curricular activities, then those schools would cease to exist.

As for those who lay patches in the parking lot, I've heard all their lame excuses. All teachers have to prepare, plan, and evaluate. Yet, some teachers are still able to do all this AND coach AND be on committees AND stay after school for tutorials AND be dedicated parents. Aves, this is no knock at you. You've volunteered for 15 years and I agree that it is someone else's turn to step up to the plate.

As for the contract and teacher benefits, they were negotiated in good faith. Therefore, it irks me to no end when a teacher feels he/she is entitled to use ALL of his/her 15 annual sick days.

Same with stress leave. If you feel you need to take stress leave every year at the expense of your colleagues, then maybe it's time to find another job that is less stressful.

The contract does too much to protect abusers of the system and bad teachers. EVERYBODY in the school (parents, administrators, students, other teachers) knows who the bad teachers are.

Teachers preach for students to "exceed expectations" in whatever the students do, yet there is no incentive to promote excellence in teaching. It's the teachers who exceed expectations that should be paid more and whose jobs should be protected, regardless of seniority.

By the way...I'm in favour of a wage increase, but only because I feel that society as a whole is not earning enough to keep up with the costs of living.

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

. However if the union decided to pay teachers for doing such a thing don't you think that some would just do it for money sake?....those who may know nothing about sports may then be inclined to take this task(because of money) and then how does the athletic department or principal assign a head coach if many applicants are wanting to coach one particular team?

JB

JB, excellent point. It's one that I have pondered myself. Also, where does it stop? Does the Art teacher who wants to "coach" the Afterschool Art Club get paid as well?

What I can guarantee, however, is that if this were the case, there wouldn't be as many tire patches in the parking lot.

 

[the power]

Here's the power after a four month hiatus...

Never a union fan myself (sorry Scud), but the cash situation does perplex me somewhat. However, being someone with less than 11 years of service, if the government is not willing to add on top of everyone's salary, why not help cut the number of years it takes to make it to #1. Let's go from 11 to say 8 years of service. That way gives a bonus to younger teachers (who, give or take, do the lions share of extra curriculars simply because they are the ones without families to look after) while thanking the older teachers for serving for long enough and acknowledging it's time to move on.

As for Willis, its ridiculous to include other government actions while discussing our situation. Terasen has been a private company since the 80's, so to include natural gas in your argument, quite simply, smells.

And if the BCTF is looking for ways to improve the quality of teacher lives while dealing with the system the current government lives by, why not look at other alternatives, such as prep time (ie ontario) or extra cash for coaching (ie quebec). There are goals other than class sizes out there, let's look for them constructively.

 

[amazing_hands]

From the amount of vacation time per year and from my experience teachers regurgitating the same lessons year in and out, I think teachers are adequately compensated.

 

[suburbanator]

I believe that SOME teachers deserve a pay raise, while others need to earn it. Now I am ranting here about a pretty specific case, but only as example.

My dad is an outstanding teacher, extremely well respected for the quality of education he provides and yet still loved dearly by his students. He would be the 1st one to tell you that not all teachers deserve equal.

He leaves for school and arrives 1 hour early, to prepare for the day. Now does he really need to prepare for the day? He's been teaching over 30 years and has lesson plans coming out of his ass, but does he simply show up, fire up the overhead and regurgitate last years and last decades lesson? No.

Oh oh, school needs a Basketball coach, Yes thats him as well. 10+ years as the girl's bball coach, not because of his skill but due to lack of volunteers (Doesn't seem to be a problem to get teachers for the boys program). Same goes with several other events thoughout the year, including a two or three week project he undertakes making a year end computer video for the Grade 7 Farewell while still managing to get your report card done correctly and I am not even starting on Camp etc.

Now I just used him as an example, and does he deserve more money? Well I am biased.

My complaint lies with the clock watchers, same ones that exist in every workplace. Collect a paycheck and go home. Teachers need to take pride in their profession from an educational view, those that truly care about the quality of the work they do are the ones that deserve.

My Dad will be the 1st to tell you that there's many 20+ year veteran teachers who have burnt out and are NOT offering a good service to the students. They care little about the product they have been paid to produce and yet here they are at the peak of the salary scale surfing until retirement.

We then get Young teachers, say 5+ years experience still full of passion and enjoying the job, teaching with new techniques and offering a much more current bank of knowledge. These folks should get some rewards for significant class improvements and for proving to have the ability to handle our children in a successful manner. (Something which seems get harder every year as the age for drug use, sexual activity and behaviour problems gets lower).

Even these younger teachers have an advantage over my dad and his experience, You think my dad would recognize drug use, or any other problem that is a product of the 90's or later? NO..... My dad would have to see a kid wearing a "peace" headband to notice a problem. So here we have another example of the value of a fresh teacher.

I think there is a problem with any system that relies on JUST experience to dictate your earnings. Who doesn't pay more for quality?

More importantly than the money, how about reducing their work load to a point where they are able to produce their best work.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

From the amount of vacation time per year and from my experience teachers regurgitating the same lessons year in and out, I think teachers are adequately compensated.

You must have some shocking teachers to throw a blanket over all teachers like that. Unlucky.

Suburbanator,


I taught grade 7 for 8 years and I know EXACTLY what you're talking about in terms of time for that year in particular. Your Dad is a good man AND teacher by the sounds of it.

 

[Dude]

LFC2,

Well, turns out I wasn't far off. As I stated, $35K for a kindergarden teacher (she was fairly new, too), turns out to be $38K. In other conversations w/ teachers, upon hearing about their wages, yes, I'm embarrassed for them. It's low. Keep in mind also, teachers can't write off the yearly excursion to Mexico as a "business expense" (or in my case, the anual Dude Inc. Sales Meeting in Guana Cay).

Top end at $71,462.00 w/ a masters? When compared to the rest of society, that is still low. If you're Nukes, and live on a big farm with your parents, in a cozy little house off to the side, hot little wife, no kids, and lots of toys to store in a barn bigger than most ice rinks, yeah, $71K is alright I guess. Then again, most of us aren't Peter Pan.

Back to my point...the whole system is fcuked. The Government treats teachers as general laborers, as does the union. Unions, in an ideal world, have NO PLACE in education. Teachers should start out at a higher pay scale, comprable to an engineer, and no top out (the economy will dictate this). A teacher that inspires students to perform at their best in either the classroom, the music room, the stage, on the field of play, or any combination does deserve more than the teacher that is just in it for a paycheque and 2 months vacation. Seniority should not be a determining factor, rather, relevant experience and results need to be considered when negotiating an individual's compensation. That's how the private sector is judged, not the years you've put in. Proffessionals in the private sector can expect that their performance will garner them higher earnings, bcause they are in demand. They can also expect to be, erm "encouraged to find another line of work" if they underperform.

Can anyone honestly tell me GOOD teachers are in demand? They aren't. Simply put, ANY teacher is in demand. Skip...how do you honestly feel about having to be extraordinary just for the right to be paid as much as a duffer? I know how Captain feels. That's the result of a unionized workforce for you...doesn't matter how good or terrible you are, you can pretty much expect that you'll have a job. It's fcuking shite, and we're stuck with it unless we buck up for a private school- something I'm incline to do, and have been giving serious thought for my kids later years.

Teachers need to be held to a much higher standard of accountability, and in exchange for this, society needs to compensate them for their value to us.

Sub...read yours after writing mine...100% agree.

Amazing hands...simplistic, short-sighted, and dare I say uneducated argument. I'll let the others sort you out there.

 

[willis316]

Here's the power after a four month hiatus...

Never a union fan myself (sorry Scud), but the cash situation does perplex me somewhat. However, being someone with less than 11 years of service, if the government is not willing to add on top of everyone's salary, why not help cut the number of years it takes to make it to #1. Let's go from 11 to say 8 years of service. That way gives a bonus to younger teachers (who, give or take, do the lions share of extra curriculars simply because they are the ones without families to look after) while thanking the older teachers for serving for long enough and acknowledging it's time to move on.

As for Willis, its ridiculous to include other government actions while discussing our situation. Terasen has been a private company since the 80's, so to include natural gas in your argument, quite simply, smells.
And if the BCTF is looking for ways to improve the quality of teacher lives while dealing with the system the current government lives by, why not look at other alternatives, such as prep time (ie ontario) or extra cash for coaching (ie quebec). There are goals other than class sizes out there, let's look for them constructively.

This conversation belongs another thread but seeing as you felt the need to refer to my rhetorical rant I will qualify the statement. Terasen has been sold to US interests this year, which was never suppose to happen but the Liberals changed the law allowing it to be so. That is what I was refering too. A bit off topic I agree but much easier to ignore than analyze.

 

[willis316]

From the amount of vacation time per year and from my experience teachers regurgitating the same lessons year in and out, I think teachers are adequately compensated.

Was this vast experience from attending high school most of the time or were you sleeping with a bunch of teachers?? Either way I think you had do a little more research when making such a statement. Just like I would not make statements about doctors based on the 3 I have had in my lifetime. Although they are all lazy bastrads who make you wait and play golf all the time.

 

[Keeper]

You've had doctors who have made you play golf? Lucky bugger.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

There have been many valid points made from both sides of this question. As a student heading into my B.Ed at UBC this coming September I have a question to ask the current teachers like Skip and Captian. It is great that you put all this extra work in outside of school in the form of coaching and such. However if the union decided to pay teachers for doing such a thing don't you think that some would just do it for money sake?

I have every intention to coach outside of school and hopefully make some of the kids where I teach as bad as a player as I am. However those who may know nothing about sports may then be inclined to take this task(because of money) and then how does the athletic department or principal assign a head coach if many applicants are wanting to coach one particular team?

Cheers
JB

Good question, JB, not bad for a Hun. What it would do, if anything is encourage more teachers to coach. As it stands right now, there appears to be as many coaches from the community as there are teachers. That might be a generalization but who knows. If they were to grant something like $500 a year to teachers who coach, then that would be better than the current ZERO. HOWEVER, most teachers/coaches who coach do it because they enjoy it. In some situations, parents coach because their child would have to team to play for otherwise. In the states, they pay teachers an extra amount to coach and also pay for the teachers to take the appropriate courses to become certified coaches in the particular sport. That is one way to make sure you don't just get Johnny and Jimmy Dickhead out to coach and make a few extra bucks. The athletic departments generally will pay for coaches/teachers who want to improve their level of coaching, at least in terms of certification.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

Many parents go to such extremes with sports because sports may be their child's ticket to a university scholarship. School sports need to be seen more than just as an extra-curricular benefit. Not everybody goes to school to become a doctor or lawyer.

I applaud those teachers who get involved in extracurricular activities in schools. They are what define schools. I guarantee that if the top "academic" schools in the province stated that they would focus solely on academics and were no longer offering extra-curricular activities, then those schools would cease to exist.

As for those who lay patches in the parking lot, I've heard all their lame excuses. All teachers have to prepare, plan, and evaluate. Yet, some teachers are still able to do all this AND coach AND be on committees AND stay after school for tutorials AND be dedicated parents. Aves, this is no knock at you. You've volunteered for 15 years and I agree that it is someone else's turn to step up to the plate.

As for the contract and teacher benefits, they were negotiated in good faith. Therefore, it irks me to no end when a teacher feels he/she is entitled to use ALL of his/her 15 annual sick days.

Same with stress leave. If you feel you need to take stress leave every year at the expense of your colleagues, then maybe it's time to find another job that is less stressful.

The contract does too much to protect abusers of the system and bad teachers. EVERYBODY in the school (parents, administrators, students, other teachers) knows who the bad teachers are.

Teachers preach for students to "exceed expectations" in whatever the students do, yet there is no incentive to promote excellence in teaching. It's the teachers who exceed expectations that should be paid more and whose jobs should be protected, regardless of seniority.

By the way...I'm in favour of a wage increase, but only because I feel that society as a whole is not earning enough to keep up with the costs of living.

Spot on again, 911. On thing to note though in terms of sick days. I've been very fortunate over my 10 years of teaching in the public school that I've only had to take 3 sick days. Now, what do you propose the teachers get when they retire for the accumulated sick days that they don't use. For example, I have 142 sick days 'banked' already. If I keep going at this rate, I'll have a shitload of days when I retire. What happens to all that money? If there was something in place for teachers when they retired, some kind of financial benefit for minimizing their sick days while teaching, this might cut down on the teachers who feel they NEED to use the 15 sick days a year. Like you said, the abusers use it and the honest hard-working teachers don't. As for long term leave(stress etc.) most of those teachers can get to fcuk. They are abusing the system so bad and it is coming right out of OUR cnuting pockets. To all you lazy teachers who abuse the system, may a thousand camels shite on your lawn.


Hail Hail

 

[Skip]

if the union decided to pay teachers for doing such a thing don't you think that some would just do it for money sake?

Just to add to the Captain's reply: As a former Atheltic Director for a AAA highschool in Surrey, I can tell you that I have thought much about this. In fact, one of the reasons I quite the AD job (which compensated me with no $, but one extra prep block for the year) was because of the frustrations related to finding coaches. In addition to this, I had to spend most of my time organizing and cleaning up the messes they made. To make a long story short, we were so short for coaches that I was literally allowing former students to come in (under staff supervision of course) to run teams so that students could play. With them being young, and inexperienced, the result was in some cases brutal. I had to literally remove one coach from his duties, due to inappropriate behavior etc.

In any case, this leads me to my point. In conversation with my Principal at the time, I expressed that in a perfect world, we should be able to offer some sort of compensation to teachers for coaching. My Principal turned to me, looked me in the eyes, and laughed. I resigned as AD that June.

My reasoning for this idea of compensation is simple. If we were to give a $500 grant to teacher/coaches, suddenly there might be a few to choose from. Hell, we might even be able to hold a real application/interview process, whereby we could give the position to the most qualified person. In my mind, this would be a situation where students would benefit, and the teachers are compensated for their hard work. Coaching would slowly become a prestigious, and sought after thing. I still believe that the teachers who love to coach would wind up doing so, and not be replaced by Mr. Math who is only interested in the cash alone. Just my opinion though.

~long winded

 

[Regs]

I still believe that the teachers who love to coach would wind up doing so, and not be replaced by Mr. Math who is only interested in the cash alone.

Why stereotype mathematicians?

You teachers are all the same

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

One thing to note though in terms of sick days. I've been very fortunate over my 10 years of teaching in the public school that I've only had to take 3 sick days. Now, what do you propose the teachers get when they retire for the accumulated sick days that they don't use. For example, I have 142 sick days 'banked' already. If I keep going at this rate, I'll have a shitload of days when I retire. What happens to all that money? If there was something in place for teachers when they retired, some kind of financial benefit for minimizing their sick days while teaching, this might cut down on the teachers who feel they NEED to use the 15 sick days a year. Like you said, the abusers use it and the honest hard-working teachers don't.

Captain...like I said, those sick days were negotiated in good faith. To use a cliche, they are a privilege, not a right. It's kind of like home insurance...just because you pay for it doesn't mean that after 25 years of cutting cheques you can burn your house down and get a new one designed by Vern Yip. The scammers scam and the hard working and honest ones can only take satisfaction in the fact that they are honest, hard working, and have a conscience. Earning more money would be quite satisfactory as well, though.

As for long term leave(stress etc.) most of those teachers can get to fcuk. They are abusing the system so bad and it is coming right out of OUR cnuting pockets. To all you lazy teachers who abuse the system, may a thousand camels shite on your lawn.

Spot on as usual, Captain.

 

[Keeper]

Captain...like I said, those sick days were negotiated in good faith. To use a cliche, they are a privilege, not a right. It's kind of like home insurance...just because you pay for it doesn't mean that after 25 years of cutting cheques you can burn your house down and get a new one designed by Vern Yip.

Excellent analogy.