FVSL New Divisional Alignment

[ghouse]

This thread is just for talk about what a new alignment might look like and work like if some of the ideas we were talking about in other threads were actually put in place.
Would a divisional alignment change better the league or weeken it?
Lets discuss.

As is
Premier 10 teams
Div 1 - 18 teams
Div 2a- 9 teams
Div 2b- 10 teams
Div 2c- 10 teams
Div 3a- 9 teams
Div 3b- 10 teams
Div 3c- 10 teams
U-21- 9 teams
Masters- 16 teams

Ideas put forth from discussions

BCPL
Premier- 10 teams
Div 1a- 10 teams
Div 1b- 10 teams
Div 2a- 10 teams
Div 2b- 10 teams
Div 2c- 10 teams
Div 3a- 10 teams
Div 3b- 10 teams
Div 3c- 6 teams

The idea put forth was how promption and religation fall between this new divisional ladder above.

eg. 3 teams move up from each division to the division posted above them and visa versa.
div 2a is the only division to gain promotion to div 1b.
div 1a is the only division to gain promotion to Premier.
div 3a is the only division to gain promotion to div 2c.
div 2b is the only division to gain promotion to div 2a.
And so on and religation is the same only the way down the ladder.
Say top 2 teams promoted and 3rd place plays playoff vs 7th place from above.

Now some tricky thoughts.
First off you can see the league has room for 4 new teams to come in to fill the bottom divsion.
Actually its going to be 7 as 3 teams will be moveing up to the BCPL.
And every year that number will change as religation from the BCPL and promotion to the BCPL will change.
As many as 3 teams could be religated from the BCPL but only 1 team from Premier will get promoted into the BCPL.
True after a couple of seasons it will all sort itself out ,but still the numbers at the top will/could always change a little.
Still its easy to adjust the Premier division and so on down the ladder.
The biggest problem I see is the bottom Division never actually haveing 10 teams. So what I see happening is adjusting the number of games played amongst those teams in that Div 3c division. Actually its an easy fix,they just play an odd number of games against some of the teams in thier division to make up an 18 game schedule. Not the fairest but at that level most are playing just for fun anyways.
The beauty behind this Idea is the teams will play all games vs teams closer to each teams level of play makeing games way tighter with less blowouts. Competition would be much better. Makeing the League and teams stronger.
A draw back I can see is a new team comeing into the league would have a long trip to the top of the ladder...years infact..8/9 years to be more accurate.
New teams doing well would have good players leave that team to play at a higher level makeing it even harder for teams to climb the league ladder.
You would see the same clubs near the top for years because of players not wanting to make Premier with thier original club and jumping ship to the clubs at or near the top.(obvious) What good player would want to play 6 years of mediocer soccer and finnally reach Premier at age 30.

You also must keep in mind that teams will fold.
Makeing the jump a little faster for some.

But here is another Problem. What if known good team is applying to enter the league. (WhiteCaps div 1 for example).

Where would they start? What would be fair?
You couldnt put them in Div3c
But you also would have to tell some team who has worked so hard that they will not get Promotion because of a new good team comeing in....
Or They just dont get to come in Unless they merge with a team in trouble. (and we all know there are always teams in trouble)

Masters I think are going to a 2 level (division) ladder next year.

U21 ,well most of you know how I feel about that division. We could start a whole new thread on what a waist U21 is...They are men and should be playing with men. Fold the U21 all together I say...but thats for another thread.

Just some food for thought and a thread started to create some conversation.
All Ideas start somewhere.

Please ,Carry on

 

[ghouse]

Here is a thought....How would you start this...to be fair...Just a simple look at the standings and your placed, or would a year to prepair be better?
Time for teams to get thier act together? A season of qualifying.

 

[Yoda]

I think teams need a year to prepare. Some teams play harder to get into the upper divisions, and teams that don't want to move up to a higher division would then know to throw games to not move up. Like the Rangers.

I think teams should have 1 year to opt out of promotion and then the next year if they earn promotion, they must take it. What's the point of relegation and promotion if teams find ways around it all the time.

 

[ghouse]

Actually now that I think about it...If a team right out of Minor soccer say 19 yearolds cause u-18 is the last year of minor ball. Were to go straight into the lowest division. They could grow and climb the ladder together and say be at a top level by the age of 25/26 and thats not to bad. Lets face it. Any real good u-21 player has already gone to a top club leaveing most average bound for lower div mens teams players behind without playing U-21 anyways. Div 3c would be full and made up of the very young and very old.
Actually a good mix for learning.

 

[fat monkey]

I don't like the idea of every new team starting in div. 3C. There may be some good teams coming in each year, which gives the existing pretty good teams no chance for promotion. For example, last year Sentinel was misplaced in div. 3 (and are a decent 1st div. team this year), leaving good Port Moody and Abbotsford teams (3rd and 4th place) in 3rd division again this year. They both should be playing higher than that, but were unable to because of the league's policy of having good teams "earn" their promotion.

It's a tough one.

 

[ghouse]

I don't like the idea of every new team starting in div. 3C. There may be some good teams coming in each year, which gives the existing pretty good teams no chance for promotion. For example, last year Sentinel was misplaced in div. 3 (and are a decent 1st div. team this year), leaving good Port Moody and Abbotsford teams (3rd and 4th place) in 3rd division again this year. They both should be playing higher than that, but were unable to because of the league's policy of having good teams "earn" their promotion.

It's a tough one.

Agreed... But div 1 is still not full.
And there always is a team every year which folds and those spots could go to exceptional teams...Idea

 

[Slug]

Some good ideas, I personally would like to see this change. It would be good for all teams because the bottom dwellers will actually be able to compete in all game and the top teams will be able to play against top competition. Yes there will be some problems with new teams coming into the league but I think it could be worked out with a bit of thought. For example, Sentinel who i heard was full of U-18 metro players, should have started in atleast one of the Div.2s, if not Div1. A whitecaps youth team obviously started in the right place Div.1. U21 teams should almost be asked where they want to start but really how many more Gunners teams are there gonna be??

Also as we have seen in years past many teams don't like promotion but what are you gonna do kick them out of the league. So there will be some wiggle room for these new teams or even a 3rd place team to be asked if they want promotion. Some teams want to get to the highest level possible and some teams like to stay where they are. But, lets say Poco Pacific win div 3a again they might be more inclined to move up to 2c because the teams are close to the level that they are used to. I use Poco as an example because I know half of their team and even though they have some really skilled players, they like practicing once a week and going out and having fun instead of being more intense and trying to get to premiere. I don't know maybe if a team wins a certain division for a couple of years, but keeps denying promotion then they should be forced to go up for atleast a year and then they will either move right back down or they will realize that they can play at that higher level and just stay there. Starting to ramble so ..........

 

[bananaman]

I think the idea of changing up the divisional alignments is probably needed. Teams in div 2 are still winning by 8-9 goals each week and cleaning out the div and there are 1-2 really good teams in each of 2a,b,c so you already know who the promotion teams are going to be before the season starts (yes there are upsets, but they don't happen every week). I liked how the FVSl used to have div 4. Why do we need 30 teams in both div 2 & 3 if we never get to play each other. Why cant we just have P, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or something simple. The leagues will filter out the teams that are good enough to be higher and the ones who should be lower. Within a season or two the leagues will be somewhat even and not top/bottom heavy and no one in the middle like we have now. Saying that, regardles of alignments there are still going to be club systems and therefore teams like ACBC, Gunners etc who plug all the players at the lowest level to get their teams promoted... 6 of one half a dozen of the other. I just dont think we need 30 teams in div 2 and only play 9 of them.

 

[outkast]

personally, I dont think you can have that many divisions, and take 8 years to climb up.

From you say there are 86 teams (roughly) in the FVSL. I would like to see...

Premier (10)
Div.1 A (10)
Div. 1 B (10)
Div. 2 A (10)
Div. 2 B (10)
Div. 3 A (10)
Div. 3 B (10)
Div 4 (16)

Bottom two from Prem move down & Top team from Div 1 A and Div 1 B move up to prem.

Bottom two from Div 1 A and Div 1 B move down & top two from Div 2 A and Div 2 B promote.

Bottom two from Div 2 A and Div 2 B move down & top two from Div 3 A and 3 B move up.

Bottom two from 3A and 3B move down & top 4 from Div 4 move up.

I think with the amount of team you need to add in a div 4. need to keep the divisions smaller to keep them more competitive.

 

[ghouse]

Outcast..That works too and also is a good Idea. Teams would only have 4/5 years to move up 1 year longer than now yet smaller divisions to create tougher competition.
I like the new div 4 idea aswell. They play an odd number of games due to the amount of teams in the league and it doesnt matter as much because most in div 4 are playing for fun.

 

[ghouse]

Vancouver Island Soccer League

Take a look at how the Island does it.
They use a ladder system aswell.
Div 1
Div 2
Div 3a
Div 3b
Div 4a
Div 4b
Div 4c

Div 1 is thier Premier...Actually we dont really have Premier anymore as the new BC Premier Division is really Premier now...Still I am sure the VMSL and FVSL will still call thier top division Premier just to make everyone feel special.
VISL only have 70 teams (now) not includeing Masters and U-21.

I like the Ladder system.

 

[lee wiltshire phoenix manager]

climbing the ladder is what they do in pro soccer in europe , google up afc wimbldon , this would be a good example , these fans had there team moved 200 k away so the fans started a new non league club at , well , rock bottom , its be 5 or 6 years now and are pushing promotion into the football league (england) . they have had good players come and go , and yes its been years but i think thats soccer , climbing the ladder is what its all about , maybe start in div 3 and if you go unbeaten , maybe then allow a skip of div 2 and go rite to div 1 .

 

[ghouse]

I to like the Ladder system,,but I dont agree with skipping a div unless the team is really that good and is takeing a spot of a team folding or moveing to Masters or something.
As long as the team jumping does not take away from a team who also has earned promotion.

 

[bulljive]

Vancouver Island Soccer League

Take a look at how the Island does it.
They use a ladder system aswell.
Div 1
Div 2
Div 3a
Div 3b
Div 4a
Div 4b
Div 4c

Div 1 is thier Premier...Actually we dont really have Premier anymore as the new BC Premier Division is really Premier now...Still I am sure the VMSL and FVSL will still call thier top division Premier just to make everyone feel special.
VISL only have 70 teams (now) not includeing Masters and U-21.

I like the Ladder system.

Fukc mate you are really fixed on the FVSL and VMSL league not being called premier anymore. Honestly what does it matter, the only one concerned with their team and the BCPL being "special" is you. Maybe the VMSL will be just as stong or stronger competition, should they not be called premier? Doesn't seem to me like everyone is really on board with this ship anyway. As you were, continue to banter with yourself.

 

[johnnybluenose]

There is a much easier fix for this.
1) There isn't going to be a BCPL this year. reading the thread here looks like the VMSL has pulled out, and the best team from VISL is being quoted as saying they aren't interested. So it will be interesting to see all the promo/relegation happening without the 4 teams moving up and out of premier...

2) You create a purely "recreational division" where there is no promotion or relegation. Teams from Div 3 can go play "Sunday league". Teams like Guildford FC, Sundowners, Columbia Bearcats, LUFC Rangers, Surrey Rovers, GEU Tigers and Titans, Poco Rovers and Express, GEU Miners, etc... Take the teams from the bottom of D3, the ones without a hope of ever getting promoted, mixed up with some other teams with players of advancing years, and the bad Masters teams... Make 1 20 team division and you can streamline the whole thing.

 

[johnnybluenose]

also, scrap the U-21 in the FVSL alltogether... these teams can go into the Rec division, that way the guys can be playing 90 minutes in that league and get called up to their clubs various teams throughout the competitive divisions for game # 2 each week until they are ready to move up full time.

The new alignment, if such a thing was to go forward, should be more friendly to the established and well-run clubs like GEU, LUFC, PoCo, and Pomo, and should be a bit more punitive to the smaller clubs or indie teams...

 

[ghouse]

There is a much easier fix for this.
1) There isn't going to be a BCPL this year. reading the thread here looks like the VMSL has pulled out, and the best team from VISL is being quoted as saying they aren't interested. So it will be interesting to see all the promo/relegation happening without the 4 teams moving up and out of premier...

2) You create a purely "recreational division" where there is no promotion or relegation. Teams from Div 3 can go play "Sunday league". Teams like Guildford FC, Sundowners, Columbia Bearcats, LUFC Rangers, Surrey Rovers, GEU Tigers and Titans, Poco Rovers and Express, GEU Miners, etc... Take the teams from the bottom of D3, the ones without a hope of ever getting promoted, mixed up with some other teams with players of advancing years, and the bad Masters teams... Make 1 20 team division and you can streamline the whole thing.

Dont believe what you read on here JBN
Gorge has said nothing..
And the VMSL has not pulled out.
I suggest you call the number on the BCPL website as I have done and get an update from the top.
As of now, Nothing has changed.
As before, If a team does not want to be moved to the BCPL they do not have to.
Also, What a team member says at a meeting in a Group of peers is different than what that person may Do by himself.
Its called Politics.

 

[Regs]

Dont believe what you read on here JBN

Starting with the above post.

 

[Dude]

Dont believe what you read on here JBN
Gorge has said nothing..
And the VMSL has not pulled out.
I suggest you call the number on the BCPL website as I have done and get an update from the top.As of now, Nothing has changed.
As before, If a team does not want to be moved to the BCPL they do not have to.
Also, What a team member says at a meeting in a Group of peers is different than what that person may Do by himself.
Its called Politics.

So who is at the top? Who actually should somebody ask for Ghouse?

 

[johnnybluenose]

That's just it Rich,

If the top teams from each league decline to move (And I have heard this from FVSL teams too, it isn't just VMSL...) then what is the point? Wouldn't it just be better to have it done properly even if it means waiting a bit?

Learning to walk before you run and all that...