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Burnaby Park User Changes
- Thread starter Reccos
- Start date
Hands of Stone
New Member
Regs said:
I was off on stress after playing all weekend in the rain.
hos
- Thread starter
- #23
All of the posts except union brother HOS make sense on this one. By the way, HOS, I used to swim at CG Brown pool and pay the exorbitant rates compared to Coquitlam where I live. Other non-residents pay these user fees.
Our CAT team plays at Burnaby Central which is a shite field with no maintenance on it at all and often the change rooms don't get opened yet we paid the user fees (that was before it caught fire). We have a lot of SFU and UBC students and even if they had a drivers licence, it wouldn't show a Burnaby address as many come from out of the province and city.
Secondly, who has their team signed by Burnaby's deadline of July 19th. Half our CAT guys are back home in other towns and won't arrive until classes.
Just to update, I did write a complaint to Mayor Derek Corrigan and Council yesterday. I complained under privacy law and the stupidity of such a policy for senior soccer teams. I did in semi-official language and tone as in my former work life I was the executive responsible for handling FOI and privacy requests and I know how bureaucrats can bob and weave and get away from the issue. My next letter (by Friday possibly) will be to the Commissioner requesting a ruling to stop this from happening although I am giving Burnaby a few days to act.
Other teams should complain and can do it more simply than I did. Just state that it is a violation of privacy rights and you want this not to happen.
The letter reads (in part):
"The letter to the persons running the teams/clubs as executive members or coaches does not purport to request photocopies of driver licences under the authority of the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act as clearly this information does not fall within the provisions of Section 26, nor does it relate directly to, or is necessary for the operation of the field allocation process. Section 27 of the Act is not provided for either in this requirement as this information is not being requested directly of the user, but of the club official.
This request clearly goes beyond what is necessary and is invasive to the rights of individuals to privacy. As members of Council can appreciate, whether a person has a drivers licence or not has nothing to do with playing soccer or field entitlement. The thought of Burnaby Park staff storing driver licence information and conducting "random checks" of players and their driver licences at the fields is both ill-conceived in policy and contradictory to the legislation governing privacy.
To complicate this further, team/club officials do not have the authority to request driver licence photocopies under the Personal Information Protection Act as this request exceeds the authority in Section 11.
The Burnaby Parks request puts team/club officials in an untenable situation as teams and coaches who comply with this request will do so without any authority under provincial privacy legislation, or they will not meet the July 19 deadline.
In another part of my letter it said:
"Adult teams, unlike youth, do not have boundaries for players" and the July 19 deadline for addresses and licence copies "does not match the way soccer teams are formed at the senior level."
I hope others
Our CAT team plays at Burnaby Central which is a shite field with no maintenance on it at all and often the change rooms don't get opened yet we paid the user fees (that was before it caught fire). We have a lot of SFU and UBC students and even if they had a drivers licence, it wouldn't show a Burnaby address as many come from out of the province and city.
Secondly, who has their team signed by Burnaby's deadline of July 19th. Half our CAT guys are back home in other towns and won't arrive until classes.
Just to update, I did write a complaint to Mayor Derek Corrigan and Council yesterday. I complained under privacy law and the stupidity of such a policy for senior soccer teams. I did in semi-official language and tone as in my former work life I was the executive responsible for handling FOI and privacy requests and I know how bureaucrats can bob and weave and get away from the issue. My next letter (by Friday possibly) will be to the Commissioner requesting a ruling to stop this from happening although I am giving Burnaby a few days to act.
Other teams should complain and can do it more simply than I did. Just state that it is a violation of privacy rights and you want this not to happen.
The letter reads (in part):
"The letter to the persons running the teams/clubs as executive members or coaches does not purport to request photocopies of driver licences under the authority of the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act as clearly this information does not fall within the provisions of Section 26, nor does it relate directly to, or is necessary for the operation of the field allocation process. Section 27 of the Act is not provided for either in this requirement as this information is not being requested directly of the user, but of the club official.
This request clearly goes beyond what is necessary and is invasive to the rights of individuals to privacy. As members of Council can appreciate, whether a person has a drivers licence or not has nothing to do with playing soccer or field entitlement. The thought of Burnaby Park staff storing driver licence information and conducting "random checks" of players and their driver licences at the fields is both ill-conceived in policy and contradictory to the legislation governing privacy.
To complicate this further, team/club officials do not have the authority to request driver licence photocopies under the Personal Information Protection Act as this request exceeds the authority in Section 11.
The Burnaby Parks request puts team/club officials in an untenable situation as teams and coaches who comply with this request will do so without any authority under provincial privacy legislation, or they will not meet the July 19 deadline.
In another part of my letter it said:
"Adult teams, unlike youth, do not have boundaries for players" and the July 19 deadline for addresses and licence copies "does not match the way soccer teams are formed at the senior level."
I hope others
Hands of Stone
New Member
That is a great letter Reccos, but it is just going to end up in the trash. If the city wants id from users and the user groups, then they have every right to ask for it or just don't use the fields. I think they should be especially leery of your Sap. CAT team, with all these out of town players, who is to say one of them is not a terrorist, wanting to inflict damage on this fine city.
BrotherHOS
BrotherHOS
- Thread starter
- #25
Thanks, HOS.
You have just given me additional material for my submission by Friday at the latest to the FOI and Privacy Commissioner.
Now, If I can figure out how to copy your post so I can include it in the letter stating that this is from a highly placed source inside the City administration this will cement my case.
To Burnaby this is a trash can issue. To the Commissioner this will be an open and shut case of an inappropriate request that is invasive to the privacy of people and against the law.
Even union bros like the HOS have to obey the law.
Hey, can you get me a quote from the City's FOI Officer that it went in the trash can. That's even better than yours.
You have just given me additional material for my submission by Friday at the latest to the FOI and Privacy Commissioner.
Now, If I can figure out how to copy your post so I can include it in the letter stating that this is from a highly placed source inside the City administration this will cement my case.
To Burnaby this is a trash can issue. To the Commissioner this will be an open and shut case of an inappropriate request that is invasive to the privacy of people and against the law.
Even union bros like the HOS have to obey the law.
Hey, can you get me a quote from the City's FOI Officer that it went in the trash can. That's even better than yours.
Don't you give up your right to privacy when you agree to it?
For example, the searches they do at airports when you enter the gates can only be done if you approve of them. If you do not approve, that's fine, you cannot board the airplane. Same with the soccer fields. If you want your team to play on a Burnaby field, you have to be subjected to random checks.If not, then you do not get a field. Tough luck. It's not like they are coming to your house and checking ID for no reason. Our Sikh Temple Club has most of our players based in Surrey and Richmond, yet we always get a Vancouver field. It sucks, but the city gives priority to tax paying residents. I agree that the residents of each city should get first crack at the fields, even though in the case of our team it hurts us.
For example, the searches they do at airports when you enter the gates can only be done if you approve of them. If you do not approve, that's fine, you cannot board the airplane. Same with the soccer fields. If you want your team to play on a Burnaby field, you have to be subjected to random checks.If not, then you do not get a field. Tough luck. It's not like they are coming to your house and checking ID for no reason. Our Sikh Temple Club has most of our players based in Surrey and Richmond, yet we always get a Vancouver field. It sucks, but the city gives priority to tax paying residents. I agree that the residents of each city should get first crack at the fields, even though in the case of our team it hurts us.
- Thread starter
- #27
Gurps:
There are two issues in this complaint to Burnaby:
1. the Parks policy issue that requires teams to register their players list by July 19th - that is just not how teams sign players. (Why won't they work with the VMSL executive like in Vancouver where you boys from Surrey play?)
2. It is against the law to ask people to provide copies of their drivers licences for this purpose.
This is the law governing privacy in BC.
From the website of the non-profit BC Freedom of Information and Privacy Association- http://fipa.bc.ca/home/ - here is their description of our collective rights to privacy in BC:
Privacy, as we define it, is the ability or right to have a "private life" - to be left alone, free from illegal or unwanted scrutiny and intrusions.
Privacy rights include informational privacy - the right to control or limit the collection, use and disclosure of one's own personal information by other agencies, whether they are part of government or the private sector.
Since knowledge brings power to those who possess it, knowledge of our private lives tends to increase the power and influence that governments and corporations have over us. Some limits must be imposed in order to maintain the delicate balance of power that sustains our democracy.
'Privacy protection' means defending the privacy of individuals by legislation or other means. "
------------
You (Sikh T) get a park in Vancouver because the VMSL gets the field allocation I believe. It would work just fine if Burnaby would sit down with the Executive of the VMSL and work out a similar arrangement.
Aren't we in soccer for the fun of playing, coaching, etc? Or are we in soccer for the enjoyment of the Union brothers in Burnaby Parks who have nothing better to do than dream up these things.
The law does not allow clubs/teams to collect this information and I am confident that it will be upheld that the law does not permit the Parks staff of Burnaby to do this as well.
If you check out the registration provisions of the Leisure Guide put out by Burnaby for their recreation and culture programs, they state clearly that the data they collect on program registrants is for statistical purposes only and they show how this relates to the laws under the FOI and Privacy Act.
The Parks edict is silent on their right to gather and file this information either because they know the law and they are deliberately breaking it (I doubt that); or HOS's Union brother is ignorant of the law and just went out on his own on this one.
I will keep you posted.
BTW: If you go to the fipa website, you can sign read how other Union brothers of HOS are fighting the deal to have our medical records managed by a US based service provider who is subject possibly to the provisions of the US Patriot Act.
Gurps: anytime you see the word "patriot" in US law, everyone ought to be concerned.
There are two issues in this complaint to Burnaby:
1. the Parks policy issue that requires teams to register their players list by July 19th - that is just not how teams sign players. (Why won't they work with the VMSL executive like in Vancouver where you boys from Surrey play?)
2. It is against the law to ask people to provide copies of their drivers licences for this purpose.
This is the law governing privacy in BC.
From the website of the non-profit BC Freedom of Information and Privacy Association- http://fipa.bc.ca/home/ - here is their description of our collective rights to privacy in BC:
Privacy, as we define it, is the ability or right to have a "private life" - to be left alone, free from illegal or unwanted scrutiny and intrusions.
Privacy rights include informational privacy - the right to control or limit the collection, use and disclosure of one's own personal information by other agencies, whether they are part of government or the private sector.
Since knowledge brings power to those who possess it, knowledge of our private lives tends to increase the power and influence that governments and corporations have over us. Some limits must be imposed in order to maintain the delicate balance of power that sustains our democracy.
'Privacy protection' means defending the privacy of individuals by legislation or other means. "
------------
You (Sikh T) get a park in Vancouver because the VMSL gets the field allocation I believe. It would work just fine if Burnaby would sit down with the Executive of the VMSL and work out a similar arrangement.
Aren't we in soccer for the fun of playing, coaching, etc? Or are we in soccer for the enjoyment of the Union brothers in Burnaby Parks who have nothing better to do than dream up these things.
The law does not allow clubs/teams to collect this information and I am confident that it will be upheld that the law does not permit the Parks staff of Burnaby to do this as well.
If you check out the registration provisions of the Leisure Guide put out by Burnaby for their recreation and culture programs, they state clearly that the data they collect on program registrants is for statistical purposes only and they show how this relates to the laws under the FOI and Privacy Act.
The Parks edict is silent on their right to gather and file this information either because they know the law and they are deliberately breaking it (I doubt that); or HOS's Union brother is ignorant of the law and just went out on his own on this one.
I will keep you posted.
BTW: If you go to the fipa website, you can sign read how other Union brothers of HOS are fighting the deal to have our medical records managed by a US based service provider who is subject possibly to the provisions of the US Patriot Act.
Gurps: anytime you see the word "patriot" in US law, everyone ought to be concerned.
Reccos,
I do agree with you, we are all in it for the fun of playing soccer, and I do agree that Burnaby should follow what Vancouver does, and allocate some fields to the league. That way, the elague could also allocate Burnaby fields to teams that have been around a long time and whom's player base is in and around the area(i.e Coquitlam, Burnaby New West)
I do agree with you, we are all in it for the fun of playing soccer, and I do agree that Burnaby should follow what Vancouver does, and allocate some fields to the league. That way, the elague could also allocate Burnaby fields to teams that have been around a long time and whom's player base is in and around the area(i.e Coquitlam, Burnaby New West)
- Thread starter
- #29
The City of Burnaby has just called to tell me that my letter is going to Council Monday evening and that I was correct in that copies of driver licences cannot legally be requested by the City of Burnaby and won't be!
A letter will be going out to all sports user groups acknowledging Burnaby's error. HOS's parks buddy did this without consulting his FOI and Privacy staff.
We discussed the points in Gurps' last post and I suggested that they meet with the VMSL executive and women's metro soccer officials to discuss how senior teams with no player boundaries can be accommodated. This was not agreed to unfortunately as apparently Tom the Parks guy does meet with people regularly. The person calling did agree that non-residents likely have to be on senior teams and that is an issue. No solution though.
They apparently get complaints from Burnaby teams than non-Burnaby teams play on their fields.
A letter will be going out to all sports user groups acknowledging Burnaby's error. HOS's parks buddy did this without consulting his FOI and Privacy staff.
We discussed the points in Gurps' last post and I suggested that they meet with the VMSL executive and women's metro soccer officials to discuss how senior teams with no player boundaries can be accommodated. This was not agreed to unfortunately as apparently Tom the Parks guy does meet with people regularly. The person calling did agree that non-residents likely have to be on senior teams and that is an issue. No solution though.
They apparently get complaints from Burnaby teams than non-Burnaby teams play on their fields.
Hands of Stone
New Member
Gurps said:
If this was the case I am betting that the League that would get the best fields and times would be the plumber Burnaby Mens League. There are probably more players in this league from burnaby than the VMSL, and right now they get league games at 6 pm and 8 pm on Sunday nights, great times
, plus you see them practicing at 10pm on the turf, also a great time.What would happen to a team like the Canadians that have one or two burnaby guys, they will now be playing 8pm on Sunday night.
It is a bit harsh to be asking teams to submit lists by mid-July, but how else would the City organize the alotments for Sept., if they don't have six weeks to go through the list and put the teams on a priority list. Should be interesting to see what happens with teams like the Canadians, Cliff Ave, Norburn, and Sap (Cat) with all thier imports.
hos
- Thread starter
- #31
HOS:
You hit it on the head. You scramble around getting addresses rather than holding pre-season training sessions.
Can't you get that guy in Parks to contact the VMSL and work out a Vancouver Parks type of arrangement with our league???
That is the one other thing I hope will come out of this when it goes to the Council meeting next Monday night - recognition that senior teams have no boundaries.
It is hard to get bureaucrats to understand this.
You hit it on the head. You scramble around getting addresses rather than holding pre-season training sessions.
Can't you get that guy in Parks to contact the VMSL and work out a Vancouver Parks type of arrangement with our league???
That is the one other thing I hope will come out of this when it goes to the Council meeting next Monday night - recognition that senior teams have no boundaries.
It is hard to get bureaucrats to understand this.
Hands of Stone
New Member
Reccos said:
What about the accountability to the Tax Payers of Burnaby, that they will have first crack at the facilities that they helped build and maintain. Ya every senior soccer team in the LowerMainland wants to play in Burnaby, they have the best city workers in Canada maintaining the fields. But is it right that just because they are a senior team that is based in Burnaby that they should get field space. I grew up in Burnaby and my parents still live in Burnaby and pay tax, so that could be a consideration, but then the Sap CAT team brings in players who have never paid a dollar of tax in Burnaby let alone B.C.
What do you say to the Tax Payers?
hos
- Thread starter
- #34
HOS:
All kidding aside, this is a tempest in a teapot. Do you think Vancouver monitors who uses Stanley Park? Who goes to the Aquarium, Queen Elizabeth Park, etc? Where the actors come from in Theatre Under the Stars? Does North Van check ID for the Grouse Grind? Did Coquitlam check the VMSL All Stars for residency when they played Millwall? Look at all the out of town players who play in local ice arenas or for senior or junior lacrosse? Are they ALL from Vancouver? NO.
There has to some sort of residency rule for teams/clubs, yes. But to make it all just residents goes against the way senior amateur sport works.
Why do you think they call it the Vancouver METRO Soccer League?
Look at how many BC residents go to other provinces for sports and even the USA. How many Canadian youth go to the USA on scholarships, etc, etc?
All kidding aside, this is a tempest in a teapot. Do you think Vancouver monitors who uses Stanley Park? Who goes to the Aquarium, Queen Elizabeth Park, etc? Where the actors come from in Theatre Under the Stars? Does North Van check ID for the Grouse Grind? Did Coquitlam check the VMSL All Stars for residency when they played Millwall? Look at all the out of town players who play in local ice arenas or for senior or junior lacrosse? Are they ALL from Vancouver? NO.
There has to some sort of residency rule for teams/clubs, yes. But to make it all just residents goes against the way senior amateur sport works.
Why do you think they call it the Vancouver METRO Soccer League?
Look at how many BC residents go to other provinces for sports and even the USA. How many Canadian youth go to the USA on scholarships, etc, etc?
- Thread starter
- #35
And one other thing, HOS, old pal. OK, two other things.
At one time here in the lower mainland, if you were in a fire department, they required you to live in the same city. What if Burnaby decided that for you workers? You'd be selling nice places for a basement suite as house prices are higher in Burnaby.
Secondly, don't we all agree that the best soccer tournament locally is the Nations Cup and one of the reasons is the quality of teams and the large crowds?
What if Richmond decided that they didn't want all those non-residents coming in using their fields, filling up local restaurants and busying local convenience stores?
At one time here in the lower mainland, if you were in a fire department, they required you to live in the same city. What if Burnaby decided that for you workers? You'd be selling nice places for a basement suite as house prices are higher in Burnaby.
Secondly, don't we all agree that the best soccer tournament locally is the Nations Cup and one of the reasons is the quality of teams and the large crowds?
What if Richmond decided that they didn't want all those non-residents coming in using their fields, filling up local restaurants and busying local convenience stores?
Hands of Stone
New Member
Reccos, you are way off, the Cities are trying to recover the costs of these money pits now. The City of Vancouver has pay parking lots at many of the popular parks, Stanley Park does not have one free parking spot, so yes they do charge to use the park. In White Rock, only residences can park for free down at the beach, with a $15 sticker on your car.
If the priority list is scraped, then watch user fees for these fields go up, as cities are now trying more and more to recover costs.
As for Nations Cup, come on man, how much does it cost to enter the tourney, lots for 3 or 4 games, the Richmond Soccer Club is making a Hell of a Lot of money from this tourney in fees and beer sales, so don't bring that up.
I wish I still lived in Burnaby, then I could go home for my lunch and nap, instead of staying in the office.
hos
ps. Bronco, it was the Liberals that have brought in Parking Fees at Provincial Parks, so you can't go and use a Lake for the day, even if you are not camping, you pay to park for the day. Ya, so keep voting for those pricks.
If the priority list is scraped, then watch user fees for these fields go up, as cities are now trying more and more to recover costs.
As for Nations Cup, come on man, how much does it cost to enter the tourney, lots for 3 or 4 games, the Richmond Soccer Club is making a Hell of a Lot of money from this tourney in fees and beer sales, so don't bring that up.
I wish I still lived in Burnaby, then I could go home for my lunch and nap, instead of staying in the office.
hos
ps. Bronco, it was the Liberals that have brought in Parking Fees at Provincial Parks, so you can't go and use a Lake for the day, even if you are not camping, you pay to park for the day. Ya, so keep voting for those pricks.
Hands of Stone
New Member
Bronco said:
Yes they do, they can get there first because they don't have as far to drive.
hos
- Thread starter
- #40
HOS:
How much more brain-washing can that Parks Supervisor give you? No City has more parks than Vancouver in these parts and they aren't hung up on checking IDs even where legal. The VMSL seems to get along fine with them and special interest teams like Sikh Temple draw players from all over the GVRD just the same as the temple draws its attendees.
The fact that the Burnaby Parks Supervisor concocted a completely unlawful scheme to receive and file copies of players driver licences and then suggest that he'd do random checks at soccer games of IDs shows how antediluvian in thinking that guy is (that means extremely old and antiquated).
I still suggest that Burnaby Parks sit down with the senior mens and womens soccer executives and discuss this issue and how to accommodate the interests of the senior leagues and balance that with the interests of people who are so anal that a non-resident might play on their precious fields. I won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen as bureaucrats who possess this kind of reasoning and logic aren't about to consult anyone.
All this crap just to protect a team like Sapperton CAT from using Central Park and this is the worst field in the VMSL (nearly).
A question that will stump you and the Parks guy:
Where do the players come from that go into the VMSL and other mens nd womens senior leagues? They come from youth teams who played on their local city parks and also travelled to other communities to play. At adult level they are not bound by playing boundaries so they go where they want to or can find a spot or where their friends play.
The Burnaby Mens League (cuz the team I have used to play there before going to the VMSL) plays at the times and days of their choosing. I have spoke to the guys running the league and they are not complaining at all. They have always had good fields and times including Riverway Sundays before they went to turf and the new times.
HOS, you still haven't told us what the Parks guy said when he was told from up above that he was breaking the law and to fish my letter out of the waste basket???
HOS, you going to the Council meeting Monday night where they will receive my letter. Mayor Corrigan is an old pick up soccer guy. He will see the issue appropriately.
How much more brain-washing can that Parks Supervisor give you? No City has more parks than Vancouver in these parts and they aren't hung up on checking IDs even where legal. The VMSL seems to get along fine with them and special interest teams like Sikh Temple draw players from all over the GVRD just the same as the temple draws its attendees.
The fact that the Burnaby Parks Supervisor concocted a completely unlawful scheme to receive and file copies of players driver licences and then suggest that he'd do random checks at soccer games of IDs shows how antediluvian in thinking that guy is (that means extremely old and antiquated).
I still suggest that Burnaby Parks sit down with the senior mens and womens soccer executives and discuss this issue and how to accommodate the interests of the senior leagues and balance that with the interests of people who are so anal that a non-resident might play on their precious fields. I won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen as bureaucrats who possess this kind of reasoning and logic aren't about to consult anyone.
All this crap just to protect a team like Sapperton CAT from using Central Park and this is the worst field in the VMSL (nearly).
A question that will stump you and the Parks guy:
Where do the players come from that go into the VMSL and other mens nd womens senior leagues? They come from youth teams who played on their local city parks and also travelled to other communities to play. At adult level they are not bound by playing boundaries so they go where they want to or can find a spot or where their friends play.
The Burnaby Mens League (cuz the team I have used to play there before going to the VMSL) plays at the times and days of their choosing. I have spoke to the guys running the league and they are not complaining at all. They have always had good fields and times including Riverway Sundays before they went to turf and the new times.
HOS, you still haven't told us what the Parks guy said when he was told from up above that he was breaking the law and to fish my letter out of the waste basket???
HOS, you going to the Council meeting Monday night where they will receive my letter. Mayor Corrigan is an old pick up soccer guy. He will see the issue appropriately.
