2018 BC Mens Provincial A Cup - Draw, Predictions, Results & Banter

[Dude]

I'm not an admin guy. But I understand it. I respect it. I have to do it for my livelihood and give it as much respect as the tactical aspects that are required to handle an emergency situation that comes along with being a Battalion Chief in the fire department. Same goes for running and coaching a soccer team. It's a really shitty situation when all the pain-staking work you put in on-field is unraveled by an admin technicality that seems so trivial in the scope of things. So, you make sure that doesn't happen. Personally, the more "professionals" in our leagues the better. There is a process to allow a professional player regains his/her amateur status. So abide by it. There is a process that ensures a player who comes from another country and association within the same country is in good standing. I have done my due diligence as a coach with ITC forms and pro to amateur status forms for some time. As much as I sympathize with the situations at hand in the philosophical sense and the purity of competition, I do understand and accept why we have these rules. It also comes down to this; if I am going to make sure I go through the ringer to ensure I abide by the administrative requirements, I want others to do their part as well. Fair?

I think it is.

Fair in sentiment, but unfortunately not in actual process. The way it was implemented in this tourney was sneaky and underhanded, and without any thought to the can of worms. Do you really think more good than harm is going to come of this? You have what appear to be one or more VMSL team with a vendetta, and used a certain FVSL admin as a pawn to do their dirty work, and now the intent of the rule has slammed back on Aldy.

Sorry, but there had to be a better way to get the VMSL to clean up their own shite without involving Aldergrove. And to sign a protest on their behalf, against the managers wishes? What do you think of that, @Ballbaby ? It’s bush.

 

[Ballbaby]

Fair in sentiment, but unfortunately not in actual process. The way it was implemented in this tourney was sneaky and underhanded, and without any thought to the can of worms. Do you really think more good than harm is going to come of this? You have what appear to be one or more VMSL team with a vendetta, and used a certain FVSL admin as a pawn to do their dirty work, and now the intent of the rule has slammed back on Aldy.

Sorry, but there had to be a better way to get the VMSL to clean up their own shite without involving Aldergrove. And to sign a protest on their behalf, against the managers wishes? What do you think of that, @Ballbaby ? It’s bush.

I don't like what has gone down either but my point has to do with due diligence. Most play within the rules. I am convinced that the Aldergrove situation was a sincere and honest mistake and not an intentional cheat. It can happen to anyone. The other situations? Don't know enough to make a comment. Again, just stating that besides what's gone down, the ITC and pro to amateur status application has always been around and many of us know about it and do due diligence. Some that don't know this might conveniently take this approach.

 

[Dude]

Right. It’s the way it’s going down that is most disappointing. You knew about ITCs, but how many managers honestly did over all of the leagues? Surely there was a better and less underhanded way to go about raising the issue and enforcing the issue than how it’s come about. I’d be embarrassed to be associated with that.

 

[Canucks4Ever]

I understand your comments regarding the ITC forms. If a player has resided in Canada for a prescribed time, perhaps they shouldn't have to gain clearance from their former governing body. Having said that, I'm not entirely sure what the ITC process filters. Discipline status? Criminal status? Professional status? Financial dues? It's a FIFA requirement I'm pretty sure and the CSA may have no choice. Dealing with other associations in other countries is not always fun but it may be a necessary evil.

I'm on a similar wavelength here. I think the problem is the arbitrary, ubiquitous, all encompassing, "catch-all" nature of the FIFA legislation. Absolutley, managers/staff at the top levels should be abiding by these rules. However, I just cannot get behind making the group of buddies throwing a team together with their college mates in Division 3 be held up to this standard and potentially being thrown out of the league because Brendan from Dublin and Andre from France did not pay an extra $105 to FIFA when they moved here. That is way too burdensome on what is supposed to be the more recreational side of the game. Who would want to run a team when you not only have to worry about guys kicking in to cover the cost of the turf times, the league fees, the referee fees and equipment but then you also have to check into everyone's paperwork. Oh, and when half the team turns over at the end of the season, you have to check all the new guy's paperwork as well. Not to mention $105 is a lot of money for someone who is just trying to get their feet under them in a new country and just wants to play footy.

For me there are two possible solutions:

1) Reduce the cost and streamline the process. Make it $25 and add a box to tick on the registration, put in the details of the last league/country that the player played in and then let BC Soccer deal with the back room stuff. Perhaps they can amalgamate all the ITCs and apply for them all at once.

or

2) Only enforce the ITC requirements for teams registering on "A" forms, aka Premier and Division 1, with a chance to go to Nationals. Waive the requirement for teams registering on B forms or Masters forms. Make the ITC process transparent, ie: publish a database that can be checked online of all the players registered to teams on A forms and whether they have their ITC or not. If a team gets promoted from Div. 2 to Div. 1 then as part of playing at a higher level they must ensure they sort out their paper work for the next season.

The problem is, as mentioned, I am not sure how much leeway BC Soccer has to operate with under CSA and FIFA...

 

[robj]

Peg protested BCT. As manager I always do my best to make sure proper paperwork is in. BC Soccer contacted me I produced the forms. Protest denied. Rovers move on.

Ok reading all this what I feel the need to say is this. We are amateur soccer the can of worms that has been opened I believe was not meant to be opened. If there is a legit protest or complaint you go up to the team before the game like a man and say don’t play this player he is ineligible. Don’t be fcuking slimmy and dirty and protest after losing. Be a man approach the team and say according to my research so and so is not eligible if the team insists on playing him then file if you believe you are correct otherwise take the loss like a man.

What’s happened here is so fcuking bad. Langley gets a bye in provincial quarter finals? WTF? This years cup will go down in history as the biggest cluster fcuk ever. I have exhausted 3 days that I will never get back because of this can of worms.

No wonder Soccer is not going anywhere in Canada. fcuking ITC for youth players playing overseas, or ITC for an amateur never getting paid a cent. I can understand for a pro but this rule is ridiculous.

VMSL AGM will be interesting. My view is worry about your own team, mind your own business and if you feel the need to protest be a man and tell opposing team before the game starts. Not this slime back door sour grapes shite!

 

[Dude]

I can’t tell you how many times in the last week I’ve had conversations with people locally where it has started with, “This can’t end up on TTP”. Seriously. I’ve respected that.

But, there is something that I need to get off my chest, and I think now it’s appropriate.

The list of people in this game- mostly guys I’ve played against or with- that I have a very high level of respect for is long. Some of you I’ve conversed with this week, you know who you are.

At the very top of that list are two men named Mike Wagner and Rob Hildebrandt.

Queue the harp music…

In 2003, I joined Mike’s newly promoted Langley FC Squad halfway through their first season up to help them in their push to avoid relegation. I’ve never been a stud at the premier level, and I felt I’d wasted a lot of years when I was a far better player helping my team earn promotion up till I finally decided my best years were behind me, and now was the time to play some premier at 28. Mike gave me that shot. We avoided relegation that year (yes, the FVSL actually had 10 teams and relegation then! Crazy talk), then in the next two year, with Mike now exclusively focused on managing (he had two left feet and was always 10 minutes late, it was for the best), playing alongside Rob Hildebrandt we won two championships (Pakenham and Premier) and made two Provincial appearances. Rob and I then saw the writing on the wall and moved down to get our club’s second division team promoted to 1st, which we did in one season and I count as one of my more enjoyable seasons. Oh, and we played another 8 years or so together, and there was always his snot nosed runt of a kid around. That said, in my three years playing Premier, I was part of two championships. Mike gave me that opportunity, because let’s face it…I was barely a Premier player.

All Mike has done is fcuking win, and build a GREAT program, arguably one of the best in the Province, not just the FVSL. He has established relationships with the local universities, and with the clubs. He brings on University players to bolster his squad, he promotes kids from within the club. And wins, nothing but wins. His partnership w/ Rob Keam a few years back brought on valuable coaching experience. Mike will never admit it, but he’s become a great coach as well as always being a great manager. I think since 2004, he’s missed Provincials twice. Does any open men’s manager boast such a record? He’s done this using amateur players the whole way. Hell, I think most his guys pay registration. There is no backdoor money going into his squad. Mike may be a dick, but he’s at the top of the list of good guys in this game, a guy everyone respects. I have all the time in the world for Mike, even though we frequently get into heated debates and disagree. He’s honest, and true to his beliefs, and will give you the shirt off his back.

Rob Hildebrant is one of the best teammates I’ve ever had, and certainly one of the best friends I’ve ever made in the game. Like Mike, honest as the day is long. He really only signed on to coach Aldy because Connor wanted to play there. Rob Hildebrandt, dare I say, is not a paperwork master. Unlike our own RobJ (on that list of men in this game I have a HIGH level of respect for) that will never miss crossing a T or dotting an I. Rob signed a good local player that happened to have gone overseas, taken a shot, and was now back and looking for a good squad. No malice.

What really pisses me off are a couple of things.

First, Mike and Langley DESERVE to win their way through, and they were built to do so. This may be the best squad they have ever had, with the best chance. The opportunity to face Rino’s on the pitch was robbed from Langley, let’s not forget that. If Langley is able to win their way to a National Championship, all you VMSL cheerleaders will say to the end of existence, “Well, they were only able to do that because Rino’s got protested by the FVSL”. That sucks, and Mike, Keamer, & their squad deserve better. Because of this, they will never get the respect and honor they deserve should they make it through. Bullshit.

Thanks Mills.

Robbie Hildebrandt came back to coach only to spend time w/ Connor, and this is something I do get. He’s a good coach, but a better person who’s every motivation is driven by a high moral code. They got hammered two weeks ago 6-0. Connor didn’t want to play on through protest, and certainly Rob didn’t. Like his dad, Connor is a class kid. Competitive as fcuk, may run over his gran to make a tackle, but a great kid, great player. It’s no secret now- as this was exposed last week after the news broke- that Hildy wanted nothing to do with signing that form. Nothing. He got beat on the pitch, and didn’t want to win through a protest- no matter what the circumstances were on the other side. That is losing with grace and humility. The protest was signed anyhow “on his behalf” by guess who. The league went around Hildy and stripped away any remaining shard of his dignity for him, which outright sucks. I’ll say it till I’m 6 feet under, that is embarrassing, and disgraceful action by the league. Then, guess what, Rino’s retaliates because they did find a player with an ITC issue on Aldy they could target. So, following the bouncing ball, Hildy is embarrassed on the pitch, then further embarrassed by this protest signed “on his behalf”, and now may face even further sanctions. Can anyone tell me how this has worked out for the FVSL? Can anyone tell me how, in the grand scheme of this, this is FAIR?

Rules are rules, sure. This ITC issue, however, potentially affects all, and it was enacted as a means to bring down one team in a witch hunt. Mills got played, and bit hard. There were countless better ways to handle this had cooler heads gotten together, and actually thought about the ramifications.

When I was a manger, the FVSL Constitution (“The Yellow Pages”) was my bible. That’s where you went to understand all the rules. If not, you asked questions. I agree that sure, some savvy managers that have been around the block would know about an ITC form, but guarantee most don’t. I am damn sure the need for ITC forms has not been front and centre on the FVSL pages. Don’t know about the VMSL or VISL pages. It’s a rule that is at the BCSA Level, and that will miss most managers. Most managers that are volunteers and doing this for the love of the game, I may add.

Using “international” players is not a new thing. I can think of a couple of dozen players over the years we’d signed, and had no ITC for. Never even knew I needed one. We were the first to sign @crazy mexi in Canada when he ran away from Mexico. We were in contravention. We’ve had African, Indian, Italian, and Central Americans over the years. Too many UK guys to count. How about local university kids that come here to play because it’s a great level of footy? Over those years not ONCE was a registration refused by the league or BCSA. With their acceptance of those registrations, they are effectively also in in-compliance. It’s a massive can of worms outside what really is an insignificant witch hunt against a band of spoiled Persian Princes.

All you squads involved in this witch hunt, how do you feel now? Was it worth it? You idiots didn't even give a second though to the bombshell you've caused and you should be ashamed. You got your Persian Princes, but in the wake you have marred this competition, sullied the reputations of at least one really good dude, ruined the run for another couple of really good dudes, and a great squad that could have made history…for what? A vendetta. Well played, bozos.

A calm head would have said, “We can’t do anything about this now, we are all at risk here, so let’s make the rules clear and loud for all to see and abide by going forward starting Fall 2018. A Clean slate with strict enforcement, and no excuses.”

Seriously, all you involved in this can go eat a dick. I hope the biggest is saved for Mills. You guys running clubs in the FVSL should make damn sure this man is fired. He has done nothing to help you, and in fact hurt you more.

 

[machel]

I can’t tell you how many times in the last week I’ve had conversations with people locally where it has started with, “This can’t end up on TTP”. Seriously. I’ve respected that.

But, there is something that I need to get off my chest, and I think now it’s appropriate.

The list of people in this game- mostly guys I’ve played against or with- that I have a very high level of respect for is long. Some of you I’ve conversed with this week, you know who you are.

At the very top of that list are two men named Mike Wagner and Rob Hildebrandt.

Queue the harp music…

In 2003, I joined Mike’s newly promoted Langley FC Squad halfway through their first season up to help them in their push to avoid relegation. I’ve never been a stud at the premier level, and I felt I’d wasted a lot of years when I was a far better player helping my team earn promotion up till I finally decided my best years were behind me, and now was the time to play some premier at 28. Mike gave me that shot. We avoided relegation that year (yes, the FVSL actually had 10 teams and relegation then! Crazy talk), then in the next two year, with Mike now exclusively focused on managing (he had two left feet and was always 10 minutes late, it was for the best), playing alongside Rob Hildebrandt we won two championships (Pakenham and Premier) and made two Provincial appearances. Rob and I then saw the writing on the wall and moved down to get our club’s second division team promoted to 1st, which we did in one season and I count as one of my more enjoyable seasons. Oh, and we played another 8 years or so together, and there was always his snot nosed runt of a kid around. That said, in my three years playing Premier, I was part of two championships. Mike gave me that opportunity, because let’s face it…I was barely a Premier player.

All Mike has done is fcuking win, and build a GREAT program, arguably one of the best in the Province, not just the FVSL. He has established relationships with the local universities, and with the clubs. He brings on University players to bolster his squad, he promotes kids from within the club. And wins, nothing but wins. His partnership w/ Rob Keam a few years back brought on valuable coaching experience. Mike will never admit it, but he’s become a great coach as well as always being a great manager. I think since 2004, he’s missed Provincials twice. Does any open men’s manager boast such a record? He’s done this using amateur players the whole way. Hell, I think most his guys pay registration. There is no backdoor money going into his squad. Mike may be a dick, but he’s at the top of the list of good guys in this game, a guy everyone respects. I have all the time in the world for Mike, even though we frequently get into heated debates and disagree. He’s honest, and true to his beliefs, and will give you the shirt off his back.

Rob Hildebrant is one of the best teammates I’ve ever had, and certainly one of the best friends I’ve ever made in the game. Like Mike, honest as the day is long. He really only signed on to coach Aldy because Connor wanted to play there. Rob Hildebrandt, dare I say, is not a paperwork master. Unlike our own RobJ (on that list of men in this game I have a HIGH level of respect for) that will never miss crossing a T or dotting an I. Rob signed a good local player that happened to have gone overseas, taken a shot, and was now back and looking for a good squad. No malice.

What really pisses me off are a couple of things.

First, Mike and Langley DESERVE to win their way through, and they were built to do so. This may be the best squad they have ever had, with the best chance. The opportunity to face Rino’s on the pitch was robbed from Langley, let’s not forget that. If Langley is able to win their way to a National Championship, all you VMSL cheerleaders will say to the end of existence, “Well, they were only able to do that because Rino’s got protested by the FVSL”. That sucks, and Mike, Keamer, & their squad deserve better. Because of this, they will never get the respect and honor they deserve should they make it through. Bullshit.

Thanks Mills.

Robbie Hildebrandt came back to coach only to spend time w/ Connor, and this is something I do get. He’s a good coach, but a better person who’s every motivation is driven by a high moral code. They got hammered two weeks ago 6-0. Connor didn’t want to play on through protest, and certainly Rob didn’t. Like his dad, Connor is a class kid. Competitive as fcuk, may run over his gran to make a tackle, but a great kid, great player. It’s no secret now- as this was exposed last week after the news broke- that Hildy wanted nothing to do with signing that form. Nothing. He got beat on the pitch, and didn’t want to win through a protest- no matter what the circumstances were on the other side. That is losing with grace and humility. The protest was signed anyhow “on his behalf” by guess who. The league went around Hildy and stripped away any remaining shard of his dignity for him, which outright sucks. I’ll say it till I’m 6 feet under, that is embarrassing, and disgraceful action by the league. Then, guess what, Rino’s retaliates because they did find a player with an ITC issue on Aldy they could target. So, following the bouncing ball, Hildy is embarrassed on the pitch, then further embarrassed by this protest signed “on his behalf”, and now may face even further sanctions. Can anyone tell me how this has worked out for the FVSL? Can anyone tell me how, in the grand scheme of this, this is FAIR?

Rules are rules, sure. This ITC issue, however, potentially affects all, and it was enacted as a means to bring down one team in a witch hunt. Mills got played, and bit hard. There were countless better ways to handle this had cooler heads gotten together, and actually thought about the ramifications.

When I was a manger, the FVSL Constitution (“The Yellow Pages”) was my bible. That’s where you went to understand all the rules. If not, you asked questions. I agree that sure, some savvy managers that have been around the block would know about an ITC form, but guarantee most don’t. I am damn sure the need for ITC forms has not been front and centre on the FVSL pages. Don’t know about the VMSL or VISL pages. It’s a rule that is at the BCSA Level, and that will miss most managers. Most managers that are volunteers and doing this for the love of the game, I may add.

Using “international” players is not a new thing. I can think of a couple of dozen players over the years we’d signed, and had no ITC for. Never even knew I needed one. We were the first to sign @crazy mexi in Canada when he ran away from Mexico. We were in contravention. We’ve had African, Indian, Italian, and Central Americans over the years. Too many UK guys to count. How about local university kids that come here to play because it’s a great level of footy? Over those years not ONCE was a registration refused by the league or BCSA. With their acceptance of those registrations, they are effectively also in in-compliance. It’s a massive can of worms outside what really is an insignificant witch hunt against a band of spoiled Persian Princes.

All you squads involved in this witch hunt, how do you feel now? Was it worth it? You idiots didn't even give a second though to the bombshell you've caused and you should be ashamed. You got your Persian Princes, but in the wake you have marred this competition, sullied the reputations of at least one really good dude, ruined the run for another couple of really good dudes, and a great squad that could have made history…for what? A vendetta. Well played, bozos.

A calm head would have said, “We can’t do anything about this now, we are all at risk here, so let’s make the rules clear and loud for all to see and abide by going forward starting Fall 2018. A Clean slate with strict enforcement, and no excuses.”

Seriously, all you involved in this can go eat a dick. I hope the biggest is saved for Mills. You guys running clubs in the FVSL should make damn sure this man is fired. He has done nothing to help you, and in fact hurt you more.

I typed this out last night after a few bevies but didn't push the trigger to post it. I thought it was probably best not to post while tipsy but you covered all my points @Dude , but in a more eloquent way...

Rules are rules but this ITC issue is ridiculous. Especially in the example provided above where a player played youth ball abroad years ago. It sounds to me that none of the teams involved were knowingly intravening these rules so why don't we pull our pants back up and carry on...implement a strict rule for next season.

I gotta say the FVSL needs to grow the fcuk up. Your team got demolished, raped, thumped, shite-kicked and instead of just owning it, you decide to take down another team and in the process your team itself was contravening the same fcuking rule so you wouldn't have moved on anyways. It's laughable. What's the point of this? Couldn't you have just taken it on the chin and waited til the tournament was over?

*I may not know all of the inner workings of the protest. Just my thoughts from the outside looking in so correct me if I’m wrong.

And before I get roasted..I don't think the FVSL is an inferior league. I had a short stint with the Action and Townsend Park back in the day. Just a step behind the VMSL in my experience.

 

[Canucks4Ever]

Fair in sentiment, but unfortunately not in actual process. The way it was implemented in this tourney was sneaky and underhanded, and without any thought to the can of worms. Do you really think more good than harm is going to come of this? You have what appear to be one or more VMSL team with a vendetta, and used a certain FVSL admin as a pawn to do their dirty work, and now the intent of the rule has slammed back on Aldy.

Sorry, but there had to be a better way to get the VMSL to clean up their own shite without involving Aldergrove. And to sign a protest on their behalf, against the managers wishes? What do you think of that, @Ballbaby ? It’s bush.

It appears new information may have come to light regarding Aldergrove's player who was found in contravention of the ITC rules. It would seem that he was likely playing in Germany as recently as last year. From what I understand the FVSL is now trying to determine who knew what and when, but ultimately they appear to have backed themselves into a corner.

Very well put by @Dude re Langley. This whole tournament has been tarred and whoever wins will always have an asterisk next to their name. None more so than Langley, unfortunately, who received that bye through no fault of their own. If they end up being the champions ultimately they will be dismissed as having won under contentious circumstances which will detract from a potential monumental achievement for them and the FVSL as a whole.

Some will say that it is high time that Rino's were "brought to justice", but surely this has come at quite the price. That being said, this ITC issue has been ignored for years (though it has not caused any problems) but as @Ballbaby points out, rules are technically rules and they do need to be abided by. What seems to be clear is that the "rules" need to be reworked with EVERYONE on the same page going into Fall 2018.

 

[Dude]

It appears new information may have come to light regarding Aldergrove's player who was found in contravention of the ITC rules. It would seem that he was likely playing in Germany as recently as last year. From what I understand the FVSL is now trying to determine who knew what and when, but ultimately they appear to have backed themselves into a corner.

OK, so here's a question, and more from a Devil's Advocate sort of position...what does it matter? What is the manager knew and didn't think anything of it? It's not like this ITC policy has been on display for all to see.

I'm asking more on a practicality point. Let's say he played bloody Bayern Munich last year, the point is, he isn't NOW. He's playing in the FVSL for a reason. It really doesn't matter if he did make money playing the game previously, does it? It matters if he is making money playing the game NOW as an amateur. So, what does it matter who knew what? The kid is here, playing in an amateur league, and not being paid. Prove he's being paid, then you have something.

That is why from a practicality standpoint, this ITC rule is absolutely stupid, and even stupider is the administration of it. A cash garb. Like you said, have a box to check off, and be done with it, I'm not sure I see any benefit to such a high fee for a guy that wants to play as an amateur.

 

[Ballbaby]

It appears new information may have come to light regarding Aldergrove's player who was found in contravention of the ITC rules. It would seem that he was likely playing in Germany as recently as last year. From what I understand the FVSL is now trying to determine who knew what and when, but ultimately they appear to have backed themselves into a corner.

Very well put by @Dude re Langley. This whole tournament has been tarred and whoever wins will always have an asterisk next to their name. None more so than Langley, unfortunately, who received that bye through no fault of their own. If they end up being the champions ultimately they will be dismissed as having won under contentious circumstances which will detract from a potential monumental achievement for them and the FVSL as a whole.

Some will say that it is high time that Rino's were "brought to justice", but surely this has come at quite the price. That being said, this ITC issue has been ignored for years (though it has not caused any problems) but as @Ballbaby points out, rules are technically rules and they do need to be abided by. What seems to be clear is that the "rules" need to be reworked with EVERYONE on the same page going into Fall 2018.

I definitely want to clear here. When I have a player enquire that she/he wants to play on my squad, I ask where they played prior. If they tell me they played in Russia, El Salvador or the USA etc., I know I have to look into getting an ITC form done. Then I ask if they played professionally or ever received payment to play. If they say yes or hum and haw, I know that I may have a pro to amateur status issue to deal with. If they come to me from another province, I ask what team they played for and when. This is to find out if they are cup tied. A player cannot be registered for two different provincial associations. They have to complete their season in one before being eligible in the other. Where it can get interesting and where the can of worms opens up is when a player has played for other teams locally (here in BC) before coming to me, and I know they have, and I am assuming that they would have cleared all the ITC requirements if any, and that they would be good to go.

By far the vast majority in our game are in it for the right reasons and are good people. I will say that I have personally been on the wrong end of technicalities and errors, not by me, but by others for the last couple of years. It was circumstantial and not deliberate. But my squad getting the wrong end of the stick numerous times. It happens. I kind of get tired of these mistakes by others and the expectation that I will be relied on for my ethics to ignore the rule infractions and just get on with it. I've done that to a fault forever. Sometimes you have to take a hard line so people can get the message and pick up the slack on their end. But like Robj says, I would make sure my opponent knows that I know they have an illegible player before they play me and not hold a card up my sleeve. There are varying commitment levels and situational stuff between teams. Some opponents deserve more consideration than others. The Langleys and the Aldergroves? Good people with good ethics. No matter the errors if any.

 

[Dude]

Another opinion...till now, there is a case for ignorance of the ITC rule being a fair excuse. Most guys are just guys running a team. Most guys are not @robj , who has managed Premier Teams forever, and lives in a world of legalities and paperwork. You will never catch Robj with bad paperwork. Most guys are not @Ballbaby , who has sat on the executive board at Surrey United, the biggest Amateur club in the province, forever, and has been exposed to that issue due to the high number of elite players that have played at the adult level with Surrey United over the years. Hell, you learned from Marty, right? Balls, we had a conversation this morning, and we debated, "Dude, you wouldn't have made that mistake." I'm pretty sure I would have, because as I stated, the LEAGUE RULES were my bible! In fact, I did make the mistake! We signed @Krazy_Mexy when he was fresh over the fence for crying out loud! And he WAS part of a professional set-up! So, there you go!

I don't buy the line, "Ignorance is not an excuse". Sure it is. This was, by far, the easiest mistake anyone could make because it's not a front and center rule. Going forward, no excuses, because sure as hell it will be front and center.

 

[dezza]

Resisted commenting on this until now, but check out this anecdote:

A player told me that he signed with a local team late in the 2016-17 season after having finished playing with a US-based team in the
US Soccer Development Academy League. When he inquired with a league representative about getting an ITC he was told point blank "no one bothers with those."

Guys can point fingers at whatever teams they want, but at the end of the day this is an issue for the leagues to sort out in terms of what information they are collecting to complete registrations and what they are doing with it. It's not hard to imagine that there are potentially dozens of players that have been playing in the premier teams of the big 4 leagues VMSL, FVSL, VISL, and MWSL (just not on Surrey United ). When you add in lower divisions, masters, and the smaller leagues BMSL, RASA, LIWSA you are almost certainly talking about more than a hundred players.

 

[Sir M]

if I was Aldergrove I would say that I was forced to sign the protest too. or not.

 

[Ballbaby]

Resisted commenting on this until now, but check out this anecdote:

A player told me that he signed with a local team late in the 2016-17 season after having finished playing with a US-based team in the
US Soccer Development Academy League. When he inquired with a league representative about getting an ITC he was told point blank "no one bothers with those."

Guys can point fingers at whatever teams they want, but at the end of the day this is an issue for the leagues to sort out in terms of what information they are collecting to complete registrations and what they are doing with it. It's not hard to imagine that there are potentially dozens of players that have been playing in the premier teams of the big 4 leagues VMSL, FVSL, VISL, and MWSL (just not on Surrey United ). When you add in lower divisions, masters, and the smaller leagues BMSL, RASA, LIWSA you are almost certainly talking about more than a hundred players.

Dezza, I am going to show my naivety. I had no idea that teams would take the approach of no one bothers with those. I honestly didn’t. I put too much work into my teams that I would be scared shitless on taking that approach and unraveling everything and letting my team down. The fact that this may be so prevalent shocks me.

 

[Dude]

if I was Aldergrove I would say that I was forced to sign the protest too. or not.

Not forced, they didn’t. Full stop.

 

[robj]

The name of this thread should be ITC Gate!

 

[Dude]

How to fcuk your friends and neighbours?

#thanksrinos
#thanksthomas

 

[Soccer Coach]

A few things that need to be highlighted from the previous posts:

a) Rino's and the Tigers were breaking the rules knowingly. There is no excuse to this. They knew of the existence of the ITC regulations. They also know very well that given monetary incentives or other perks other than covering basic costs is illegal. They can not play innocence or ignorance on both counts. First, they were complaining for years about the Tigers, and second @dezza is confirming that he has had discussions about ITC's.

The Rinos Tigers do not deserve to be in the Cup competition, nor in Premier at the VMSL. For those, who argue that expelling them has tainted the competition are completely wrong. It is the other way around. This might be the FIRST legitimate Cup Competition in many years.
The asterisk SHOULD in be in the past recent competitions and all the cups where they competed.

b) The only mitigating factor for the Rino's administration is the claim that some players allegedly were communicating that someone in the VMSL one bothers with those.
@dezza: ""When he inquired with a league representative about getting an ITC he was told point blank "no one bothers with those.""

The question is why @dezza did not confirm with the league? What if the players are lying?
This seems a weak excuse.

However, I want to point out that he is bringing up a valid point. The VMSL seemed to have encouraging a culture of not following important laws, rules and regulations. Perhaps this is why they joined the Tigers. They complained about them constantly. Nothing got done; thus, they decide to join forces since they are getting the vibe that nothing will be done. This makes sense from a rational point of view. Perhaps not from an ethical point of view. Nevertheless, it is valid that they are trying to shift blame to the league. The VMSL at the end is as responsible as them.

c) With respect to @thomas mills, he should be commanded. He has done the correct decision and to some degree it is very admirable. He has received plenty of heat and criticism from everyone here and even in the AFTN blog. Nonetheless, enforcing of the law and rules should be the guiding principle even if its unpleasant, inconvenient, or burst our cherished "bubble".

I would tend to agree with the argument that the VMSL turned to blind eye in many aspects in order to get and edge over the FVSL.

I hope that BC Soccer realizes that having competing leagues does not help anyone and only encourages bending of rules. The administrators of the leagues know that teams will shop the league that lets them get away with breaking the rules.

This has been truly the "Wild West of Soccer". It needs to come to an end for the benefit of players and teams and future generations.

Youth clubs are very strict with ITC transfers. Sometimes they sit players for months. Thus, there is no excuse for any adult league not to have done the same.

All these problems would be avoided if people would be pausing and thinking about their decisions and why there rules. Even if we do not agree with them and find ways to convince ourselves that the laws are "stupid" or "irrelevant", we should strive to follow them as much as possible.

 

[forest1979]

First of all I think we all want the best local football we can possibly get....well it will only happen if players can be paid. I am not saying all because to be honest there are not that many good ones. So why don't we literally open the flood gates, if a team wants to pay someone fine, and think about how much shite this would get rid of. If Surrey (just as an example) want to pay 7 players and Langley (just an example) pay nobody and they get drawn against each other in the cup, I know who I,m rooting for, and if I play with Langley I want to prove something....but whats happening at the moment is just embarrassing to anyone who loves the game.

 

[dezza]

The story about the player not getting an ITC was told to me after the protests, and when it allegedly happened he was registering with a different club. Maybe he's lying, I don't know.

But I know he did eventually end up getting an ITC when he played for another club that did it for him.