2006 AGM: Pre and Post Discussion

[bonefish]

Click here for last years thread.

Its that time of year again, as the current season begins to wind down that some thought be given to the next. Over the years there have been some common gripes, desired changes, etc that have gotten lots of airtime on TTP. However, when it comes time for the AGM, there is often no organization, to effectively support any motions for change. Hopefully, this thread can be used to galvanize some of the interested parties together so some positive change can be brought about.

I am not sure where last year's pre season meeting about the reduction of teams in Premier is sitting, but any changes at the top must have commensurate changes in the divisions below.

From a Div 2 perspective some points for disscusion are:
1. Do we really need a Div 2 CAT system?
2. Moving to a Division Aligment that will improve the quality of play. Whether this means adding 1 or more divisions or having 2A 2B 2C setup as a tiered system with 2A being the highest division.
3. Substitution Rules:Canada National Soccer has rules that allow unlimited substitustions during the halftime stoppage and five subs during regular/overtime play.
4. Collection and display(Web) of Statistics for all divisions. This would/could include, Scoring Stats, Goalie Stats, Cards,(1st Assists would be a bit much to deal with).

Lets get it on...

 

[Keeper]

First: When/Where is it?

Second: I think the number one issue, right across all divisions, should be implementing a move towards a unified, single divisional system. 10 teams per division. Start at Premier and move on down. Azzi, make it happen.

 

[trece verde]

Div 2 CAT probably should be a 3rd Division. Don't think tiering 2A/B/C would work though; you'd just end up with a 3rd, 4th and 5th Div.

My understanding was that the original purpose behind shortening up the divisional structure was so that the path to Premier for ambitious teams/clubs would be less lengthy (aka QPR). Problem is, there can be too much of a difference between the top and bottom clubs in a divisional group.

Re the Sub rules, check out what the Vancouver Island league does. The top divisions play with the limited sub rules, and the lower ones have unlimited subs. Players are registered either competitively or recreationally.

Stats depend on what kind of collection software the league wants to use (keeper stats are tough to get, because lower division games will have keeper changes that won't necessarily get recorded as readily). Still think (as long as somebody can put the time in every week) that keeping track is a good idea, though.

Trece

 

[Keeper]

Div 2 CAT probably should be a 3rd Division. Don't think tiering 2A/B/C would work though; you'd just end up with a 3rd, 4th and 5th Div.

Exactly. And that's a bad thing?

 

[bonefish]

With regard to the 3 groupings in Div 2. Whether they star or are replaced with 3,4,5 doesn't matter. One important note is that the quality of play is usually more inconsistent the farther down the division tree. One way to make sure that the lower to mid divisions are made up of the right stuff is to have 3 teams go up and down. This would also help teams new to the league advance a little more quickly.
For player stats, I can see a change to the team lists to include the appropriate columns for stats and rather than hand them in at the beginning of the match, they would be collected at the end of the match with the proper info.
For substitutions, If the rest of Canada is using unlimited halftime subs, they have an advantage to being able to manage their subs in away to best benefit from that flexibility. (knowing which players do best in specific situations, intervals etc.) For the lower divisions where nationals isn't a factor, modifying the rules will allow teams, players to get more of their roster in the game.

 

[animal]

Keeper your bang on with the divisions of ten, I see there are 98 teams in the league right now. In the next 3-4 years there needs to be a way to re-format to 10 divisions of 10 teams.

Animal

 

[peter]

Animal, that would bring the VMSL full circle to circa 1979. Back then it would take a good young team coming out of juvenile 10 years (actually, I think there were 9 divisions back then). They changed it so teams could move to the highest level faster.

 

[canuckboy]

The FSVL may actually have done something right. A couple of years ago they restructerd divisions. Premier, 10 teams Cat Same, Div 1 10, Div 2 A,B,C 10 each, div 3, 15 teams. Each Div 2 winner goes to div 1, while bottom 3 div 1 teams go into Div 2 A,B,C(randomly). Bottom 2 teams in each div 2 side goes to div 3. Top teams in div 3 go into div 2.

I think this is the key, allowing Div 2 to be large, you stay away from getting div 5 etc(thats just dumb). And having more than one team getting promoted/relegated you keep the divisions from becoming stagnent.

Even though there are 90 teams between Prem and div 3, a new team can go from bottom to top(well as top as a FVSL team), in 4 years. Hell, you could come out of youth, and still not be able to go to Pioneer Square and get shitfaced by the time you make it to Premier.

 

[LION]

i like the rec or competitive papers. the rec papers can be almost a seperate league. with teams that are wanting to move up, not going through the rec league. they would start at the lowest competitive league. maybe a div 2.
that would really work.

 

[trece verde]

it would take a good young team coming out of juvenile 10 years (actually, I think there were 9 divisions back then). They changed it so teams could move to the highest level faster.

My point exactly, which seems to be lost on the contingents of zzzgermans and FVSL div 2'ers...

Peter: actually, there were 7 divisions then (as far as I can remember). My point is that there is a happy medium between stretching things out to a 10 division league, and the too-shortened 3 1/2 level setup in place now. The league needs a 3rd division in place, both to entice more rec players, and to fill in the gap for those graduating players who don't fit either the u21 or the higher divisions.

Trece

 

[PV]

The VMSL may wish to set up a long range strategic planning committee to have discussions with the FVSL and the Vancouver Island league to create a BC mens league, at least at the Premier team level, to create a better league with even better competition, and to create more fan interest. Lacrosse has a Victoria team (the Shamrocks) and lacrosse gets coverage in the Vancouver Sun. The Sun's sport section tells readers which lacrosse team is playing each night and what time and where, and then the next day they report the score. Sports fans looking for a night of entertainment can check the Sun newspaper and go see a lacrosse game. Only dedicated soccer fans, and very few of them, watch VMSL games.

The VMSL will have to change its name to achieve this objective, perhaps call it the BC Mens Soccer League. The FVSL and Vancouver Island wouldn't be interested in a league that retains the name VMSL. The league could still have a system of promoting and demoting teams.

The biggest opponents to this concept may be the Vancouver island teams who will be taking more trips to the lower mainland as they are likely to have fewer teams in a new merged league. The Victoria Shamrocks do it in lacrosse and they play evening games which means they have to stay in a hotel in the lower mainland when they come for a game. The Victoria soccer teams can play midafternoon games so there would be no need to stay in hotels and the travel costs would be minimal.

It will have to be done long term, perhaps to be implemented in several years down the road, so that the Premier division could have 10 or 12 teams, and all the current teams would know that in year 2009 for example, they will compete in a provincial Cup type competition with the top 10 or 12 teams ending up in the new premier division in the new league.

Now that there are so many artificial turf fields, a league with Victoria teams could work. All games with travelling teams could have artificial turf fields as back up in case a grass field is unplayable, that way teams that travel would be assured of playing.

 

[aekara]

I agree with Keeper, I like the idea of consistency throughout with 10 (or why not 12) teams in each division. I don't see the point of a tiered 2a 2b 2c system. It's better to just call it 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.
IMO the most logical way to do it is keep it simple and consistent. I also like the idea of 2 teams competing for promotion/relegation in each division instead of only 1. That's the fun of a competitive league where you're constantly fighting to keep your spot or move up. A linear divisional structure is the way to go.

I don't like the idea of unlimited subs at halftime. 5 is PLENTY. We're not playing basketball where we're going to sub players in and out every 10 minutes. Let the rest of Canada change THEIR rules if they want. For youth soccer or masters maybe you need more than 5 but I've always thought 5 is more than enough.

I would love to see statistics being kept track of, but it would have to be the referee or a 3rd party. I don't like the idea of coaches keeping track of their teams' stats. It could become a little sloppy.

 

[bonefish]

The reason for 2a, 2b, 2c was to appease whoever it is that does not want a div3. Moving away from groups would be the best thing. Unlimited subs at halftime does not mean you will be subbing players in and out every 10min. The flow of the game will be maintained by keeping the 5 sub rule. If need be, a clause for how many "dressed" players could be on the bench. What is gained is the ability to more fully use the players on your bench; not always in an attempt to out maneover the opposition, but more to spread some playing time around. CAT teams have already highlighted this as being an issue when a player from a higher div comes down and a decision has to be made on playing time.
For Stats, Refs could collect and check the modified team list sheets(that include stats) and then submit them with their game reports.

 

[Keeper]

To address the problem of taking 10 years for a new team to rise through the divisions I'd like to mention:

1. Wasn't the league trying to promote a "club" type system? There likely wouldn't be that many new teams forming anyway. How many have there been in the last few years?

2. Quality players would likely already find themselves on a team in the upper divisions (Premier, First, and perhaps Second), and probably wouldn't be looking to start a whole new team. Therefore any new team would need a few years to develop into the quality that decent players would want to join.

3. I agree with the concept of promoting/demoting two teams per year. It makes every game worth that much more (particularly down the stretch), and it would drastically change the look of each division each season (40% turnover each year). Further, there's more opportunity for any one team to rise (or fall) through the league that much quicker.

4. One might also suggest that a possible league buy-in fee would place a team in middle of the league (Div 5 or 6). However, this might result in bottom feeders simply folding and repackaging themselves as a new team in order to buy their way up. (Also, the extra money to the league could be spent on a new stats program for Bonefish)

 

[BlazeArmy]

4. One might also suggest that a possible league buy-in fee would place a team in middle of the league (Div 5 or 6). However, this might result in bottom feeders simply folding and repackaging themselves as a new team in order to buy their way up. (Also, the extra money to the league could be spent on a new stats program for Bonefish)

Perhaps even an updated version of the excellent site.


Who are we kidding. it would go to extra cheese on the Pizzas

 

[Captain Shamrock]

10 team Premier League


Division 1 - 2 sections of 10

Division 2 - 2 sections of 10

Division 3 - 2 sections of 10

Division 4 - 2 sections of 10


The bottom two teams in Premier get relegated every year and the bottom teams in each section of the divisions get relegated with the top two in each divisions moving up.

If you finish at the bottom of division 4, you are forced to retire or at least be put out to graze or stud........




That is enough for 90 teams...........


10 divisions is a little bit of a stretch........


"Hey, who are you playing for?"

"HOS United"

"What division are you in?"

"Oh we just go relegated from division nine."


It would almost being embarrassing saying you played in division nine........



Division 4 is almost respectable.

 

[termatofylakas]

Well we all agree CAT is useless and that we'd like better structure. There are 64 teams that are not CAT and out of those 64 some have problems fielding teams and some have almost been kicked out. Why not just make it a sixty team league and have 12 teams per div? That'll make it Premier-Div 4. Two teams up and two teams down every year. New teams if they go up year by year will take 4 years to go to the top. Only thing is you'd have to start the season earlier with this weather here or extend it to fit in a 22 game schedule. And as Alikira says at least div 4 sounds somewhat respectable.

 

[aekara]

Unlimited subs at halftime does not mean you will be subbing players in and out every 10min.

Good point. Although there would be more subs during the course of the game because generally at least 1 of the 5 subs is at halftime.

CAT teams have already highlighted this as being an issue when a player from a higher div comes down and a decision has to be made on playing time.

Another good point, but I like the fact that it can be tough to delegate playing time. Even at a div 2 'beerleague' level I think that strategy and good coaching should be encouraged. Knowing how to organize substitutes is part of the game.
Furthermore, from what I've seen most div 2 teams use 4 or less subs a game a lot of the time.

For Stats, Refs could collect and check the modified team list sheets(that include stats) and then submit them with their game reports.

Would coaches/teams keep track of both teams' stats or just their own?

BTW Alikara I like your suggestion for the divisional/groups setup. At least 2 groups per div is better than 3.

But if we do open it up to 9 divs of 10 teams, under this suggestion, what will happen to the CAT teams? Will they split apart? Will they stay part of the club?