Nov 18 Referee meeting, suggestion box

[cainy]

I have recently been asked to speak at the up coming referees meeting on Nov 18th. My role at this meeting is to represent the players and coaches from the Fraser Valley. The referees want to know things they are doing well, aswell as things they could improve upon. I applaud the referees for taking this step, it shows me their willingness to get better and provide some more consistencey to the game and its officiating.
This is not a forum to vent about specific individuals and situations, rather a place to make some grey areas more black and white. If this does become a thread to air personal problems I will ask the moderators to close the thread.

 

[cainy]

Goalies

I have noticed a trend in the last couple seasons in respect to keepers. It seems to me that any time you go up with a keeper, any contact is automatically called against the attacking player. My question is, Is this what we want to see? do we want to protect our keepers? Personaly I don't like it, I feel keepers have the advantage of reach, they can also come up with elbows and knees. As much as protecting the keepers is good, we all want to be able to challenge at the other end too.
Comments?

 

[cainy]

Passbacks

Do you guys think we could come up with a sollution to the problem of interpreting what is or isn't a pass back. I think when a ref is close at hand and there is time he could help you out with a shout like " PASSBACK" or " NO PASSBACK". The argument from them would be why should we help you?, but I think they would be helping themselves from the abuse from players and sidelines.

 

[Aves]

protecting goalies: depends on how you challenge...if it is a vertical challenge, you should be able to do what you can to win the header, etc...but if you're jumping up and over to make contact, it should be a foul ( kind of like jumping into the net after you spike a vb). If it's on the ground you have to protect the goalie's hands, but if he's going in with his feet to win the ball, then its more like an open ball.
Anytime a player takes a lateral path into the goalie, it should be a foul.

There should be some due process and judgement shown in a game. If the refs expect players to keep their cool, then they can't be making hasty decisions that are based on impulsive, defensive reactions to what players do or say. Whenever I see a ref quickly reaching for his card and flashing it in a players face, you can tell that he's reacting because some button was pushed. They're only human, and they get tired of the moaning, but they should model what they expect players to do...control their emotions.
Refs are going to make mistakes on calls and not see everything, but when they send players off for questionable dissent, it really has a huge impact on the game...and the best compliment you can pay a ref is to say you didn't really notice their impact in a game.
It's a tough job no doubt, but I always respect the refs that can control their emotions and be the level-headed ones out there.


avesknowshehasemotionalcontrolissuesattimes

 

[Rangerforever]

I agree with Aves.
The human side of the game is everything.
You should be able to control your emotions as a player and a ref.

I like it if you can speak to a ref in good or bad moments.
Having a chuckle and talking to them throughout eases tension.
If a ref let's himself be approachable, I feel the match will go much better.
On the other hand, I've been chewed out by a ref (deservedly so many times) and cautioned and then carried on.

It's the issuance of reds sometimes that I feel need to be comsidered too.
What happened to SU a week or so ago is an example.
Ref calls PK in the 93rd minute.
A professional foul in some opinions.
Doling out the red was harsh to me.
This is the grey.
My opinion is yes, in the 1-80 minute area, you give it.
Not in the 93rd minute - the game's over and it doesn't accomplish anything.

Keepers: Gotta protect them.
However, it should be no different than any other challenge if the keeper's body is not really contacted.
If a player is in a keeper's way from his forearm down, it's a fair challenge especially if the player is at more risk of getting his bell rung than the keeper being submarined or something.
Another grey area if the keeper is touched but no intent to foul committed if the keepers body is unscathed.

For what it's worth,

RF

 

[PNE]

As one of the persons involved in trying to set up this meeting I'm interested to hear some of the concerns.To create a better understanding of the what goes on in games is obviously what we are trying to do here.I'm sure it can only help.
Incidents in the penalty are always contentious issues whether it is a foul,off-side,hand-ball or "pass-back" because a goalscoring opportunity is involved.A referees performance over a 90 minute game often gets judged by one call involving these."The ref. decided the outcome of the game" or "The ref. had no balls to make an important call".When these incidents happen there will always be criticism;whatever the level of game.
RF makes an interesting observation with regards to hanball on the goalline.However the laws of the game do not allow us any option in this situation.A player doing this not only prevents a goal but could win the game for his team,or at least secure a tie,if the resulting penalty is missed.Therefore denying the opposition of either 1 point or all 3.The time of the game when it happens is not really the issue but the score of the game at that time is.If the game is tied then this is obviously a crutial play & a call or non-call will definately influence the game.A player who denies the oppostion of the only goal of the game should get sent-off.However if the score is 6-0 then it doesn't influence the game in the same way (especially if it's a cup game) & MAYBE there could be some tolerance.Unfortunately the laws of the game just don't allow that.At least the way it is right now,it is a consistent call;even if it does seem a bit harsh at times.
I hope this all makes some sense & I look forward to hearing a few more questions & concerns about the beautiful game,
PNE for ever.

 

[Rangerforever]

Fair enough PNE.
The score at that time deserves merit.
Good point(s).
Pardon the pun.

 

[Fastshow]

box....

My suggestion, for this cyber-suggestion box is that PNE gets his finger out of his coconut and starts posting on TTP again.

He's had a longer dry spell than Buckfast. And he hasn't posted much either.......

 

[Dude]

Cainy,

Does this forum include any discussion on how to attract new refs to the game? Probably the biggest problem is that there isn't a hopper full of younger blood.

Also, some sort of established process should be implemented before a player is sent off for dissent (like PAU was against Peg Friday- diabolical call, to be kind about it). In the case like your player's, it should be understood that unless the player is being verbally abusive (i.e.: using abusive language or threats), he should be given a stern warning first to calm down. Should the player continue on with the rant after the warning, then can be shown the second yellow.

 

[Cartdriver]

Sounds like the NHL?

The above posts about when to make a call based on the point in a game or the score line is just like the complaints the NHL has endured regarding "putting the whistle in the pocket" in the late stages of the third period or in OT. Calling a game tight with "by the book" calls in the first and second period and then letting the boyz beat the crap out of each other in the final 20 caused so many problems until they went to 2 refs and the book was followed a bit better. I know that right now the current NHL crackdown is a bit much with 80% of the game played on a power play, but I do give them credit for not just using the rule book as a doorstop.

Regardless of whether a game is in the 3rd minute or 83rd minute, a foul is a foul....and a card is a card. It is a dangerous line to flirt with when you let the ref decide, based on the game score, whether he makes a call or not. Scenario: Imagine team A down 3-1 in the 87th minute when one of their guys plays an unintentional hand ball in their own box...the ref lets play go on with no PK because it doesn't make a difference as team B is already on the way to a win. Forward to the 90th minute and the ball is played to the other end of the pitch....team B plays an unintentional hand ball in their box....but the ref lets it go because he did the same at the other end. Forward to injury time....team A scores a late goal to pull to 3-2 and the game ends. How irate are team A's fans if they could have had those PK's called.....hypothetically, team B misses their PK over the bar and team A scores on their kick. Could it have had an impact on the game score and result? Maybe promotion/relegation at the end of the season for team A could've been avoided or had based on that lost point if the ref had just applied the rules of the game the right way. I know the scenario may be far fetched, but I've seen crazier things.

If the rules don't work, change them.....but if they are there, they must be followed with no exceptions.

One complaint I do have about refs in general (not just the FVSL)......when they give you their pregame speech: "Now guys, I'll let you play physical but I do call everything from behind. And I let advantage go when possible". The game then starts and our ref calls fouls on numerous 50/50 shoulder to shoulder challenges with no advantage allowed...and then a player gets chopped from behind and he lets it go. Frustrating. If you're a ref and preech your style before a game.....for fcuk's sake, follow it!!!

CDmustgonowasheisuptochapter7intheFIFAbook

 

[fat monkey]

First of all Cart, an unintentional hand should not be called - period.

This is my biggest beef. Hand balls must have intent. Intent does not necessarily mean sticking your hand out and slapping the ball like BIG BITCH does to Cainy, but perhaps just having enough time to pull your hand out of the way.

Far too often in games at all levels, referees immediately blow the whistle when the ball and the hand meet, regardless of intent.

Not protecting the keepers? Are you guys nuts?

When most keepers go up for the ball, one leg gets raised to protect most of the lower half. This still leaves the entire torso exposed to anything. If we start saying there's a "grey area" to what we can and can't do to keepers, it could be slaughter. Maybe not at the premier level, where the goonery isn't as prevalent, but perhaps in the lower divisions where late tackles happen as often as subs.

I say we blow the whistle whenever there is any doubt as to intent of the player when a collision with a goalkeeper occurs.

This is from a FVSL premier player and class 3 referee. See you on the 18th, Cainy.

 

[Milhouse]

Referees

I think better communication between the official(s) and the players before and during the game would improve the game.

When the referee is checking over the team list it would be beneficial for him to briefly explain how he is going to call the game.

Eg.
1. Explain whether the linesman is to signal just the ball being out or which direction the throw should go too. Div 1-4

2. Explain how they intend to call hand balls; any time the ball is touched with a hand or only when the hand is an awkward position...ets.

3. Explain how they intend to call offside with no linesman to make the call. If its close is the call going to the attacker or the defender.

4. Explain how they intend to call fouls. Tackles from behind are they an automatic yellow? Will you get a warning before a card comes out?

As players we need to adapt to the way an official is running a game, however, that can be difficult if a referee lacks consistency.

It makes me sick listening to guys whine to a referee about a call that the ref has made 10 times in the game already.
Right or wrong understand that they will call it that way and adapt.

 

[Skytrain]

Only got one suggestion (beef):

There has to be more consistency between all referrees. Some calls/infractions could be called a foul one week and the next week it is 'play on'. Referee's should all interpret the rules the same.

PNE why no PoCo games lately? Don't miss you, just wondering


skytraindidnotknowFatMonkeyactuallyplayedonthefieldw/premier
anddidsurprisedFatMonkeyisaReferee

 

[TheRob]

PNE,

Excellent game on Sunday. CAT League, GEU vs. Whalley. Best reffing of the year by far.

As far as the meeting goes, I think that something like this is long overdue. Should have been done a long time ago.

The only suggestion I can make to the refs is to try not to be so confrontational. Too many guys think the game is about them and start dolling out yellows left and right. A lot of that is a "God complex" but I think it is also too many guys being in over their heads. There are guys reffing Premier this year that should not be there. The guy with the dark curly hair comes to mind. Nice enough guy, but gets a little shaky when the match gets a little physical.

My two cents. Hope it helps.

 

[Referee]

These suggestions are great.

People are talking about consistency. Trust me, BCSRA and BCSA are trying to work on that. Officiating is about a neutral perspective. Everyone sees the game differently. It's like a player playing a different style than his/her teammate. Can't change that.

In the Laws of the Game, a foul is a foul and a card is a card. There is no provision for that in the Laws. It should not matter if the foul occurred in the first minute or the 90th minute. Think of it as a murder or a crime committed... does it matter if it happened at home or in a grocery store? You do the crime, you do the time.

Referees are human beings and welcome communication. It all depends on timing and your approach. If a player approaches a referee offensively/confrontational, then the referee will have no choice but be defensive/authorative. Referees treat players the same way players treat referees.

Good luck with this meeting next week.

 

[hubs]

Consistency is key to officiating in my opinion. Players have to adapt to the way a game is being called. Personally I have no problem with that as long the game is called consistent. What happened to guys like Martin that used to officiate in the premiere league? My biggest complaint in general is why the advantage rule is not used more frequently? I've seen it numerous times where it could have been utilized. There is nothing saying in the rule book that after the play has played out you could return to the offending player . to either have a word or issue a card if warranted. As far as guys bitching, what is the point? The ref will not go back on his decision no matter if youy are right or wrong. That being said the officials should be open to communication during the game so both the officals and players know what to expect from each other.

 

[cainy]

Re referees meeting

Stay tuned for the break down from the referees meeting last night. Thanx to all those involved, it was very informative, very positive. A special thanx to Fat monkey, for his help.
I'll write more later after training.

 

[Balsa]

Cainy

I hope you were happy with the meeting. I heard it went very well and was informative for the players and refs.

 

[cainy]

Pleasantly surprised

As you can imagine it was a little intimidating, having to speak on behalf of the Fraser valley at this meeting. The room was genuinely interested it our views on the officiating. It played out like this, Myself and Fat monkey would bring up a topic, the refs would share there views, we would present ours, and in the end come to some common ground.
Key points, first, hand balls will only be called if there is intent to play the ball, no matter where or when it takes place. Bobby Sawtell made a good point however, if a defender who is jockying, makes himself big, like a goalie and spreads his arms, if the ball hits him even if he didn't play the ball with his hand, he is seeking an advantage by spreading his wing span.
Second, referees will try to help us and themselves, by letting a goalie know if indeed it is or isn't a passback. This is considered to be a hotspot in a game, so in the spirit of the game, a word from the ref can help defuse a potentially volitile situation.
Third, Another hotspot, after a foul is committed, if the offending team seeks to gain an advantage by standing in front of the ball or kicking it away, they will be given a card. If this offence goes unpunished it usually turns a game into a heated affair.
Fourth, offsides, when it is to close to call, usually when a ref doesn't have the benefit of a linesman, the flag will stay down. Fifa brought this in years ago, we as players now know so adapt accordingly.
One Queston brought up by the refs was, " What in our opinion is the most important part of the refs game we think they need to work on? A) positioning B) Knowledge of the rules or C) man management. Answer C). I saw alot of heads nodding in agreement.
Fifth, It is difficult to control our sidelines, especially if it's Johnny's dads mate, or players from another team or division after a half dozen pints. If a person is being a persistent problem, the ref will ask the coach to deal with it and will not restart the game until it is under control. Guys we do need to police ourselves better.
In conclusion, Refs have similar problems as we do, guys who want to get better are always at training, same goes for them, it seems the same faces are at their meetings on a regular bases. They are trying to improve on that, as well as communication amongst themselves. We as a group need to recognize, that their job isn't easy, and for the most part they are doing it for the love of the game. It is dificult to attract refs, and we can't play without them, so the more abuse we give them, the less likely we are going to get good ones.
My advise to both groups is, in the heat of the moment, take a second or two to think about what you are going to say or do and let cooler heads prevail. After all we are all human, and make mistakes. Any coaches or players who read this should take this information back to the players on your respective team.

 

[halfvolley]

Great job

Well on behalf of everyone I think it was great cainy and fat monkey went to this meeting. Nice job.

Listening to all who had a little input I have to agree especially with the "standing over the ball" incidents. That has to stop in every league and should not be tolerated by any ref. Good referees who bring out a few cards early in a game tend to set the tone for the game, if applicable of course.

I think offsides without linesman, if close, should be played on. We put our respect into the ability of the ref game in and game out and that should not change. I like that one.

More importantly, man management! Cainy hit that one right on the nose. Ref should warn/ask the team causing problems and then after that it should be red cards.

Just my opinion even though the meeting is ajourn.

Always good to talk about.