Fvsl Discipline And Fines 2004/2005

[Yoda]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

I hope you took note of her number for future reference.

Yes Aves, i got my wife,............i mean her, number.

Dial, i was saying that refs don't always see what really happened, but my point on the opposing player was that people could pull the wool over the leagues eyes by bringing in anyone from that team to say that everything was OK just to help a friend out.
I imagine the league only wants to rule on an incident once, not rule on it, have someone appeal it, then bring a friend in to talk about it, then report to BCSA, etc., etc.

 

[cainy]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Blind man I agree with alot of what you have to say, especially " avoid red and you have no worries" I would also like to clarify, I don't bitch about the job the executive or discipline or refs do. They do all these roles out of default, I subscribe to the school of thought that, unless you want to step up, don't complain. Just get on with it

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

Point, counter point

...my point on the opposing player was that people could pull the wool over the leagues eyes by bringing in anyone from that team to say that everything was OK just to help a friend out.
I imagine the league only wants to rule on an incident once, not rule on it, have someone appeal it, then bring a friend in to talk about it, then report to BCSA, etc., etc.

I hear ya Yoda...but what are the odds that a) someone is going to do a vicious tackle on a friend and then b) the guy who just got butchered is going to come to the aid of his "friend."

I'm guessing 9 out of 10 times if someone is willing to go to the league office to defend someone who was booked for a "vicious" tackle, then the tackle really wasn't that vicious to start with. But what do I know...I only play by the rules.

 

[Get On With It]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Gentleman,

As an official, a past Discipline Chair and a coach I see the frustration with the current discipline guidelines. As Blindman said the league tries to follow the guidelines set forth by BC Soccer. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

I sent two players off from the first game of the season for violent conduct, according to guidelines an automatic plus a minimum of 2 a maximum of 5. Both these players sat one and were on the park after their automatic. Guidelines not followed! To get 5 games I would suspect the referee's report was quite harsh and detailed as to the seriousness of the foul. Reputation comes into play but only over the past 1/2 playing seasons (or it suppose to happen that way).

Getting the other player involved in the foul may sometimes help your cause but I would instead go in educated. Know the policy (http://www.bcsoccer.net/bcm/bcsocce...5395320A990CB45487256C970029A905?OpenDocument) or at very least the rules. I know a lot of you think you know the rules but really read the rulebook and ask questions to get the proper interpretation. Ask the Ref.com is a starting point. Or simply using this website as many officials read through and post occasionally. I once had a player's red overturned due to a referees report being inaccurate in the wording used to describe the reasoning for the send off. Most importantly don't go in saying it was not really a foul or at best a soft yellow. Be honest it was serious enough for the ref to send you off.

The foul in question was quoted as being 30 seconds in, not nearly enough time to piss the referee off enough to want to have some type of vengeance for the player, is it? Some players get in the books with referees by continually committing that soft but late foul, be it a push, elbow, yapping or late boot. Others just plain piss us off by continually debating every little call or non-call. Pick your battles wisely. A foul throw in the middle of the park worth crying over (some guys do it), a questionable offside call? My point is continually challenging everything distracts the best of people from doing their job; try doing it with 22+ doing it. I sometimes get criticized with my straight forward approach of dealing with players (Shut up and get on with it!) but in the end it leaves the picture clear, I have heard you, I disagree with you at that point because I haven't said you're right so let's just play. Yes, good officials will admit to making a mistake on occasion at the mercy of building some level of credibility with you players.

As for the old boys network, Cainy said it best, "I subscribe to the school of thought that, unless you want to step up, don't complain. Just get on with it."

I started a thread a couple of weeks ago hoping to get some honest feedback from players to improve refereeing in the league but a number of you simply joked around with it.

I remember having Cainy and Fat Monkey come to a Fraser Valley Referee meeting on behalf of the league and talk about what they wanted from referees. Might be another idea for you guys to get a little more of what you want? Held the first Monday of each month at the Langley Legion (7:30).

 

[Dude]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Coach,

You know some of the battles I had with issues like that in the past. As someone said...no rhyme or reason sometimes. That said, the best success I'm always had is to actually get involved w/ a face-to-face meeting, explain your side, and hope for the best. I had one player bring in his 2 year old toddler once, just to charm the guys. That seemed to help.

That said, there seems to be more and more reluctance to listen to a player's side, and more and more swing towards assuming the ref report is accurate. Fact is, if they have an issue with the player or team, they can screw the player without any concequences.

 

[Yoda]

Re: Point, counter point

I hear ya Yoda...but what are the odds that a) someone is going to do a vicious tackle on a friend and then b) the guy who just got butchered is going to come to the aid of his "friend."

Man my explanations must be brutal. I'll try and explain this for the last time Dial as it's taking away from the rest of the thread. I'll explain it in plain English:

Player A tackles Player B. Player A gets a red card and 5 games. Player A then takes Player C (from the same team as player B) to the league and says, "this is the guy i tackled and he is fine". Player C agrees he's fine and off they go. How the hell is he league going to know that Player C really wasnt' the one fouled?

Hope this makes more sense.

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

Re: Point, counter point

Much clearer, Yoda. I see your point now. Still, I doubt my teammate would do that to me, but who's to say that they don't send in their own teammate or someone off the street posing as the victimized player? Clever. Maybe I'm just too honest to think that way.

I thought we were on topic, no?

GOWI...what's your take? Do you like the possibility of the "victimized" player (assuming it is really him and not an imposter) coming to the defence of the person who was given the red?

Personally, I think it would help clarify: Whose report is more accurate: the ref's or the player's in question? You've made mistakes before, haven't you GOWI?

In my long and illustrious career, I've only been before the discipline board a couple of times...but I can just tell that whatever I have to say is pointless. They've probably heard the same excuses before, and they're not going to ruffle any feathers by going against a ref's judgement. They really have no choice but to take the ref's word unless...you have it on video or...the "victimized" player speaks on your behalf. Ahhh, I digress again.

Now...here's a real cynical thought...How much does player fine $$ have to do with how many games are assessed? Is player fines just a cashcow for their respective leagues?

 

[Get On With It]

Re: Point, counter point

GOWI...what's your take? Do you like the possibility of the "victimized" player (assuming it is really him and not an imposter) coming to the defense of the person who was given the red?

Personally, I think it would help clarify: Whose report is more accurate: the ref's or the player's in question? You've made mistakes before, haven't you GOWI?

My understanding of the discipline procedure is that the person who was issued the red and one other person may be in the room for the hearing. Having that "victimized player" wouldn't do much to sway my opinion as he has no possible way of seeing what the referee or any other person for that matter sees. Meaning what someone else sees happening (the Ref) and has to decide in an instance intent, severity, and misconduct is all within seconds. The referee must make that assessment without second guessing himself and put to paper as best as possible what happened. As a discipline chair I always contacted the referee after getting the initial report to ask more questions about the situation, as most reports were too vague. Personally I have never been contacted by FVSL on any of my reports. Maybe because they are clear or maybe they have a different view of dealing with it.

In my long and illustrious career, I've only been before the discipline board a couple of times...but I can just tell that whatever I have to say is pointless. They've probably heard the same excuses before, and they're not going to ruffle any feathers by going against a ref's judgment. They really have no choice but to take the ref's word unless...you have it on video or...the "victimized" player speaks on your behalf. Ahhh, I digress again.

Making excuses and saying that it wasn't that hard, etc won't help. Personally speaking I tell it like it was when I take my players in to have things dealt with. I paint a very clear picture of the situation, player’s position (offending and victim), time of match, referee's position, mood of the match (vital), and finally what I saw up to and after the foul. Most times this will be very much the same as the referee report but will add a little more detail, allowing for a more fair judgment. In the end most sendoffs are deserved the only question is the severity. Remember it is a foul to kick or attempt to kick another player. If I have some guy jumping in two footed, studs up I will deal with it whether there is contact or not. Most players have issues with that but the flip side is dealing with a player being taken away with a broken leg after I allow the almost(s) to go on before the real contact is made. I would hope you players appreciate the fact. At the end of the day it is a game and work comes back on Monday for most of us.

Now...here's a real cynical thought...How much does player fine $$ have to do with how many games are assessed? Is player fines just a cash cow for their respective leagues?

As for the final cynical question. I would suggest you read your leagues constitution. It lays out fines and such in black and white. More importantly I am sure there is a financial statement made available to any teams that request it. Mr. Brown and Mr. Fuge have done a great deal of work for this league and I would have to say they don't sit around milking you guys for the sake of some sort of slush fund. Both are standup gentlemen who deserve a lot more than to have such accusations flying around. I would care to venture there are so many referees or former referees running this league because nobody else has stepped up to the plate.

 

[Dude]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

On your last point, I absolutely agree. It doesn't serve any good to suggest the league, refs, or both are somehow on the "take". From what I see, since fine amounts have increased, the discipline report has shrunk. The out of pocket incentive seems to have worked.

And, you're nuts on: Mr. Fudge and Mr.Brown have been stepping up for a long time, taking a lot of abuse for their efforts. Let's look at this as constructive criticism.

The issue at hands seems to be the ref's report, and the effect it has on the suspension. I agree that our league, as opposed to the VMSL, seems to be overly harsh with the issuing, then the ensuing punishment. I have no problem with the fine amount, as that is set in stone. But, I do have a problem with the lack of clarity that goes into the report. Simply stating "Violent Conduct" is not good enough, especially when the violent conduct in question was a harmless love tap or a late tackle. "Violent Conduct" is the kiss of death as far as descriptions go, and often it isn't at all accurate. Perhaps the list of descriptions needs to be expanded to include several check-box type categories. This way, if a player punches or head-buts another, it is clearly written up as "Violent Conduct", and the description is accurate. If the offense was a hard tackle, or a late tackle, it gets written up accordingly. Also worth mentioning, how did the player take his medicine?

Just some suggestions...perhaps it is done this way now, perhaps not. If the report is too reliant on a refs full narrated description, they may get tired of writing and do what's simplest: categorize as close as they can, and move on. Unfortunately, that has proven to be overly harsh, and the player has zero recourse.

 

[Rigger15]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

The system is a joke and what kind of player in England would ever recieve a suspention like this. We play by the same laws gentlemen.

We are not in England and I would care to venture nobody is paying to watch any games here in the FVSL. Big difference! In England the fans pay big money to see their stars and referees are held under a microscope. The microscope here is not so detailed but ultimately you could build yourself some credibility by regularly sending in referee performance reports from ALL your matches (good and bad) so that when your ref is shite you have a leg to stand on. Only critizing bad referees paints a bad image of your judgement!

 

[blindman]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Good example this week from Div 2 (see thread) on how the discipline committee used, in their opinion I guess, common sense and went well below the "minimum" penalties.
Player 1: double caution + abusive lang. to ref - 1 additional game
Player 2: violent conduct + abusive lang. to ref - 1 additional game
Player 3: insulting language + threatening behaviour - 0 additional
Player 4: abusive lang to ref - 1 additional
So there you go, refs aren't always supported at hearings and the individual circumstances, history of the team, etc. are taken into account.

 

[Dude]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Blindman...come on. If we're going to be honest, you have to tell both sides of the story. Emotions get high in games, and most of us do our best not to direct profanities towards you guys. But, it happens, and 9 out of 10 times it is in the variety of "WFT, ref", or "Open your f-ing eyes". I've seen many a player get additional games for this. Who knows what gets written on the report, or how it's interpreted, but some- as many as 4 games total suspension- seem over the top.

Now, if it truly falls in the form of threatening behavior, absolutely, throw the book at 'em.

I think all we're asking for is accurate reports. Is a late tackle or a chop really violent conduct? No...a punch, yes. Headbut, yes.

See my point?

 

[Dude]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

BTW: you did make a good point about the discipline guys using common sense, which is a good sign.

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Good example this week from Div 2 (see thread) on how the discipline committee used, in their opinion I guess, common sense and went well below the "minimum" penalties.
Player 1: double caution + abusive lang. to ref - 1 additional game
Player 2: violent conduct + abusive lang. to ref - 1 additional game
Player 3: insulting language + threatening behaviour - 0 additional
Player 4: abusive lang to ref - 1 additional
So there you go, refs aren't always supported at hearings and the individual circumstances, history of the team, etc. are taken into account.

Blindman...in the case of player #3...who was the threatening behaviour against? The referee or a player? If it were a player, then it just reinforces the fact again that if you talk back to the referee, you get more games (see players 1, 2,and 4) than if you threaten a player.

 

[Big T]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

WTF is up with those suspensions......I have to agree with blindman that those penalties are defintely too little for the conduct described.

Player 1 and player 2 both were abusive but player 2 displayed violent conduct ..... in my books that should be at least 2 additional games....it can't be the same as the others.....i remember the GN and PAU raucus last year when they gave some guys 4 games for some pushing and shoving !!!!

Now threatening behaviour by player #3 ....you have to throw the book at them and send them away for half a year......this is not a Surrey high school or gangstas paradise....fcuk if you say something that can be considered threatening the ref or another player then stay home......we don't need bitches to pop off about how they are gonna kill someone.....send them home with their mommies.

Based on the information described I think the penalties are not consistent.

Thug life forever

 

[Dude]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

T...the question comes into play: what exactly was the threatening behavior? In every game there is some form of threatening behavior on a minor level, some get yellow cards, many don't. All about the same. I got one for calling a guy a wet paper bag. If I'd gotten another that day for trash talking (i.e.: I'm coming at you hard on this corner, be ready to get thumped), the report would have read threatening behavior.

Violent conduct? What is it? Punching, or pushing and shoving. There is a huge difference.

Utah had the classic once, telling Kevin he'd fist fcuked a game really well, and thank-you. Now, what does that beauty fall under? Abusive language?

Let's keep it real (Utahism).

What Blindman is saying is that perhaps in these cases, the voices were heard, and perhaps a lighter suspension given.

Agree...death threats, etc., throw the book. But, the reports need greater clarity in order to give suitable punishment.

 

[Big T]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

point well taken ...... IMO threatening language means that the player has stated their intention to injure, and harm someone in a permanent manner.......now I don't know all the details of these cases and i could care less, but you have to treat those as serious offenses.

Now having said that ....BIG T was pulled into a FVSL committee hearing 2 years ago for intimidating a ref at halftime.....I was managing our Div 2 side at the time and I went to speak to the ref at half to ask what happened on a particular call (i didn't yell or swear or say thing inappropriate)......but he thought i was gonna beat the shite out of him he was a young lad but there was a clear misunderstanding......i am usually a very nice guy !!

i agree that defintely that the cases should have as much detail about the offense as possible.

AS for Kevin......ah hes just kinda stuck up on the field I would find that comment funny as hell, but he has no sense of humour........speaking of which where is that guy ??? I have forgiven him for getting me lost on the way back from Fort Langley....with no gas

 

[Rangerforever]

Exactly Coach's point.

Good example this week from Div 2 (see thread) on how the discipline committee used, in their opinion I guess, common sense and went well below the "minimum" penalties.
Player 1: double caution + abusive lang. to ref - 1 additional game
Player 2: violent conduct + abusive lang. to ref - 1 additional game
Player 3: insulting language + threatening behaviour - 0 additional
Player 4: abusive lang to ref - 1 additional
So there you go, refs aren't always supported at hearings and the individual circumstances, history of the team, etc. are taken into account.

Thanks Blindman on your input, we all appreciate it.

I'm sorry, but this is exactly what my mate was on about.
Coach is furious over what got given out to my teammate when you compare it to this.
Our guy stitches a guy in a hard tackle.
This was a hard tackle, NOT NECESSARILY violent conduct.
I know, a fine line, on a judgement call, if the interpretation is premeditated.
I do believe that he was trying to send an early message that he was in the game and meant business though - I won't deny that.
No fcuking way did he mean to break his leg.
The lad's an ultimate fighter, an ex-professional footballer, he can break legs at will.
Trust me.

Now.
We are not questioning the red.
Our point is - 5 fcuking games.
No previous run-ins with the Board.
He got up after the tackle, didn't say a word to anyone.
Sheepishly walks off the sidelines and quietly apologized to his teammates.
I was standing right there.
The player he nailed gets up and plays the rest of the game.
And, the referee's report was incorrect when both sides are asked for their version of events.

Come on man.

Lastly.
Beaking off abusive or threatening behaviour to an opposing player vs. the same to a ref.
No comparison whatsoever.
The ref is a higher entity and should be treated with way more respect.
I admit my faults - I've done it and been carded appropriately.
Some refs have to understand though it's just language, it's not a threat.
Again, a fine line and misinterpretation can easily be made.
Eg. - Foul is called, you disagree.
"Ah for fcuk's sakes man!"
No eye contact to the ref, a frustrated remark in general.
A guy blurts it out in that situation and really meant no ill will to the ref.
I don't expect refs to be shrinks out there, but stern, cautionary words go a long way, instead of immediate yellows.

Just one man's opinion and no disrespect intended.

Cheers,
RF

 

[blindman]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Dial911...The threatening behaviour was directed at the referee (not verbal or physical).
Ranger...I agree with most of what you said that there are totally different types of abusive language. "For fu%$ sake" probably shouldn't even be a caution if it's said in the head of the battle, isn't audible to the touch lines, and isn't continuous. If you do get sent off for that, certainly it should be 1 game not the book minimum of 4.
My point was that it appears the board is actually trying to use common sense this year because over the past two years almost any time I've written abusive language directed at myself in a report the guy has got 4 games which is often harsh and that wasn't the case this time. However, consistency is also what you guys are talking about so I wonder how those are one gamers now when they were 4 gamers last year, and another sendoff I had this year that was less severe then 2 of those 4 in that list and landed the guy 3 games? And don't get me wrong, I'm not bitter at all that the guys on that list only got a game...just raising the question. (Phone call from the league to tell me to shut up should be coming soon!!)

 

[bulljive]

Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

A player on my team(NDFC div 2) was read carded last game for calling the ref a ****ing idiot or saying thats ****ing bullshit one of the two or both.(not in his direction but with his back turned as he walked of the field in frustration. this is after a ref let a perhaps 20 yard offside play on and they scored. Reasonable, that he was frustrated but i do feel he desearved the red. Hoping they stay consistent and don't give him four games. Because he did calm down walk back on to the field and let the ref do his booking and apologized