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Fvsl Discipline And Fines 2004/2005

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shaven

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Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

I'll put in my two cents on the language issue. I understand that excessive language is a very fine line, and one that we as players should be very aware of and hesistant to cross. However, that being said, I do think that the FVSL referees need to thicken up their collective skins a bit. What frustrates me to no end is watching matches from Div. 1 on up to Premier and witnessing a ton of swearing and other language that the referees don't even seem to flinch at. Everyone on and off the field talks to or at the refs, and many things are said in the heat of the matches that are simply acceptable. When the very same referees officiate matches in other divisions, such as 2 and 3, somehow the tolerance level is wildly different. There, absolutely zero language of any kind is tolerated, and often penalised harshly, nor will the referees even let any player question or talk to them. Even when the player(s) approach respectfully! Why the double standard? I realise that the higher divisions generally bring a higher calibre of play, but the inconsistency in what is acceptable behaviour and language is a very wide gulf indeed. Doling out cards and such for language, particularly when the language is contextual and not directed insultingly or disparginly towards the referee or other players, is often a cop out in my opinion. I'd like to get some feedback from anyone who could explain to me why in the FVSL there is such a glaring difference in how players are treated at different levels. If something is unacceptable, it should be unacceptable everywhere at all times. At times I feel as though my mother is refereeing one of my games and she's telling me to watch my mouth lest she wash it out with soap. C'mon refs, thicken up a bit.
 

Dial 9-1-1

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Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Shaven said:
What frustrates me to no end is watching matches from Div. 1 on up to Premier and witnessing a ton of swearing and other language that the referees don't even seem to flinch at. Everyone on and off the field talks to or at the refs, and many things are said in the heat of the matches that are simply acceptable. When the very same referees officiate matches in other divisions, such as 2 and 3, somehow the tolerance level is wildly different. There, absolutely zero language of any kind is tolerated, and often penalised harshly, nor will the referees even let any player question or talk to them.

a) There is more "respect" given to the more "elite" player. You see it at every level in every sport.

b) It's no coincidence that refs who are more patient, more tolerant, more approachable, and more communicative tend to work the higher level games. That's what makes them respected officials. That's why they are where they are and those stuck reffing mucker ball are where they are.
 

shaven

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Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Dial 9-1-1 said:
a) There is more "respect" given to the more "elite" player. You see it at every level in every sport.

b) It's no coincidence that refs who are more patient, more tolerant, more approachable, and more communicative tend to work the higher level games. That's what makes them respected officials. That's why they are where they are and those stuck reffing mucker ball are where they are.
Both good points those, but I still maintain that the disparity between the tolerance level is too wide....and what's with the reference to "mucker ball"? As I stated, there are higher level referees that do officiate lower division games, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Have a bit more respect for those in 'lower divisions'. We can't all play CAT or Premier, and that certainly does not make us 'muckers'. If that is the mentality amongst the officials, it is a very sad state of affairs indeed.
 

girth

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Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Shaven said:
We can't all play CAT or Premier, and that certainly does not make us 'muckers'. If that is the mentality amongst the officials, it is a very sad state of affairs indeed.
So what you're getting at is you're a "Mucker" but would not like to be called one. ;)
 

shaven

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Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

girth said:
So what you're getting at is you're a "Mucker" but would not like to be called one. ;)
No, I prefer not to label myself and those around me in such ways is all. There is some great soccer played in other divisions, and just feel that to percieve anything below the CAT/Premier level or so as 'mucker' divisions is to do all of us a disservice. I just wonder how much that perception has permeated into the officiating ranks and just how much bearing and influence it has on the behaviour of the officials in their on-field conduct and decision-making.
 

blindman

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Looking at my dissent card totals you would find what you guys are saying is true. I generally have very few dissent cards at premier (prior to this year!) and many more at the lower divisions and I agree that the amount of dissent you hear is probably about the same across the league (except masters which is by far the worst!). I can think of the following reasons for the discrepany:
1) Generally premier players know where the line is and when to shut up. They have their say and its done with while lower division players are still complaining about the decision that was made in the 23rd minute in the 57th minute.
2) Genearlly premier players complain more about important decisions (PK's, etc) rather then the trivial decisions lower division players complain about (throw-ins).
3) Generally premier players complain in the "heat of the moment" because the intensity of their matches are higher. I tend to take more "heat of the moment" dissent then calculated ongoing dissent. Often the dissent from lower divisions is not said in the heat of the moment.
4) Generally premier players are more often correct when they complain or at least have a point. Basically they complain when you've screwed a decision up as opposed to lower division players who are more often incorrect, begging for the next call, or simply dont' understand the laws as well.

Don't take that as a slag against the "muckers"...just the differences that I think exist with dissent.
 

Get On With It

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Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

I would have to agree somewhat with Blindman as we both have officiated all the different divisions. Another point not mentioned by the Blindman was the fact that in most Premier matches there only seems to be that one guy who never stops, luckily in most cases he has some sensible teammate(s) who shut him up for us. Where as in the other divisions not only does the first guy get going it often turns into a team go at the ref. By and by I have learned to let most bounce but I personally draw the line at swearing at me. When someone calls me a f**king idiot then he is going to see yellow. I can accept that you might not agree with a call and have a go about it but when I tell you to shut up than enough is enough. I am sure there is a more diplomatic way to get you to zip it but my experience has found that when I engage in a more low key way than I get from all angles for the rest of the game.

Yes, we refs make mistakes and sometime try and save face by saying so but I would hope that you players would realize that you all make mistakes. Wouldn't be great if we refs ran around saying things like, "you really fu*ked that pass up didn’t you!", "nice f**king shot you mucker!" I am sure that would go along way to build relations for the 90 minutes. I instead try and compliment good tackles, shots and saves by players. I would hope you appreciate that type of behaviour as opposed to the criticism. We refs would mind a little of the same. Just once would I love to hear a guy who just committed a foul get up and say, "Sh!t ref, you bang on, great call!"

Dealing with you guys has made me a better ref simply because each game and each division offers something different, whether it be that calculated foul, that clumsy foul, or even that opportunity to educate the best sweeper in the league that being in an offside position doesn't constitute offside.

Open forms like this helps the game but only if you share the info throughout the league. Holding team meetings where you can have a beer and sit back and openly discuss not criticize the rules and the refs would go along way, maybe even bring a ref or two in once and a while.

:confused:
 

suburbanator

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Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

Dude said:
I think all we're asking for is accurate reports. Is a late tackle or a chop really violent conduct? No...a punch, yes. Headbut, yes.

See my point?

Dude... As a person that has sat in on the discipline commitee at times I noticed a couple of things. For one, the ref reports were slim on content but to be fair they typically are not able to take in all of the play around them with "photo" memory. They can only offer their opinion regarding the intentions. Unfortunately the system we all use makes it easy to describe fouls with as little as a Code.

I have seen the comittee contact a ref to get a better explaination when required, as they should.

When it comes to Language, they could be more specific..such as Did the offender issue any threats, either at the ref or players or was it simply some guy on the back line issuing vulgar words such as "Nice fcking Call", I mean is that really even abuse? However confronting the ref about a call is a different story, any attempt to approach or confront the ref while issuing such statements is a act of hostility and in my opinion is abuse. If you are dumb enough to yap AFTER recieving a card, WARRANTED or not...then take what you earned yourself for wanking off.

When it comes to tackles everyone has an opinion and a different view of its severity. Remember they have to judge intent, and some of you are good actors. I could chop you and cause a more serious injury than a punch could do, it just doesn't look as drastic..

On other side of the coin the funniest thing was listening to players recount their version of what happened. Almost EVERY instance they denied the refs account completely, and quite frequently came off quite simply sounding like they were not telling the truth. If your version of what happened doesn't even closely resemble what the ref wrote, chances are you will look foolish and I would bet on the ref's version in that debate because how often are they COMPLETELY wrong? If it is a instance where multiple players were carded due to a fight, argument or such I would suggest your coach/manager attend with you.

Anyhow, what do I know.
 

curious

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girth said:
So what you're getting at is you're a "Mucker" but would not like to be called one. ;)
i am a long time mucker and i at least know it.i have played in all divisions premier to div 3 and i find no matter what div it is if you give a litle respect you get some back it is a simple but effective way to go about your soccer and i know it works for me anyway.no way could i put up with all the bull i hear directed at the ref's so in turn i dont give it .i will however ask a direct question in the proper manner and almost always get an answer while play goes on
 

Soccer Mom

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Re: Fvsl Discipline And Fines.

as a referee myself, get on with it is dead on. bitching to the ref about what you might think is a bad call isn't going to help your team. i find myself more tolerable, even favourable with players that approach me in a calm way, and aren't just throwing a cuss into their complaint every third word. as you all know, you'll never, NEVER win against a ref. so when i'm playing, i try to keep my thoughts to myself. on the slight chance that you do slip a few words to the ref, they better be worth the refs time.

as a div. 2 player, i can't say i've agreed with every referee we've had, but we haven't had any serious misconceptions about what happend and what the ref wrote up on their report. i think we've only had one player shown the red this season. so i can't really comment on that issue.
 
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