Div 2 VMSL Division 2/3/CAT CUP

[Soccer Coach]

This reasoning is delicious, so if Team A beats Team B then Team A is better than every team that Team B has beaten, tied, or even not beaten by as big a margin (as is every team that is 'similar strength' to Team A). We could all find examples of this to suit us, so let's get to the cold hard stats of it all...



Strange how both divisions have the same average points, what forces could be at work here? Barring an inordinate amount of tied games I would say both leagues are destined to have approximately the same average points per team. I ran an in depth study and found that premier average around 29pts/team also, so they are about as good as Div 2? I also found that if you add up the average pts/team of both divisions, then divide that by the number of leagues in division 2 you get 29 as well, spooky.

As for using range to assess quality, you may want to throw out GFC as an 'outlier' on 5pts, and reign in that 2B range. Now the comparison is 29 to 34... so, ehm, well yeah, the meaningless stat is slightly closer now.

But you got me, the standard deviations don't equate. Did you come up with this on your own, or have you had help from the Football Manager algorithm coding team at Sports Interactive?

Dude, you are deflecting... You and Dezza can tell us why you are so obsessed in creating this myth that Division 2B is more competitive than division 2A when the data and anecdotal evidence suggests that this is not the case?

Just in case you might be open to expand your horizons:
a) It might be surprise to you but transitive comparisons are the cornerstone of sports ranking systems. I am glad that you find them delicious.
b) The average points in the EPL is not 29, not even after only 22 games.
c) GFC is a usual situation. Five/six teams fighting to avoid promotion is unusual. Three teams fighting for promotion in the last week of games is unusual. Division 2A is very hard at the bottom and top. Division 2B is more regular.
c) With respect to the use of standard deviations and other measures of dispersion. Please be my guest:
http://www.ncer.edu.au/papers/documents/WP92v2.pdf

 

[chris]

I don't have the knowledge to have an opinion on this one but I just have to say "Wow, where do you find the time - to chart out the probabilities?!"

Amazing.

 

[Blue and White Army]

I want a Venn diagram, or this thread never happened.

 

[machel]

However, the most interesting question is why the people of Rinos keep insisting that Division 2B is stronger than 2A when the evidence suggests that it is otherwise or at best the same strength?

The question of which side is better is a tricky one. I've been playing in a different league for the past couple of seasons but I've always followed the vmsl with friends spread across most of the divisions. Before the season started I felt 2b was stronger, but why?...probably because there are traditionally strong div2 sides like Rinos, Gastown, Bombastic, NK Hrvat and even Harps.

For me, the top 2A sides felt like they haven't been proven to be strong over the past fews years(although there are exceptions for both sides). But maybe this is a transition year where the new top teams are the likes of the Storm, Snipers, Strikers, Sporting and us old guys have to accept that. haha

For me the two surprises from each group have been Campo and Euro. Campo were terrible last year and have definitely made some changes and are playing great. That goals against record is sic. Euro are in the upper mid-table(right now) after a couple of years of struggling which was strange because I thought they had a pretty solid line-up.

So what div2 side is better? Well whoever wins the cup final obviously.

 

[Soccer Coach]

The question of which side is better is a tricky one. I've been playing in a different league for the past couple of seasons but I've always followed the vmsl with friends spread across most of the divisions. Before the season started I felt 2b was stronger, but why?...probably because there are traditionally strong div2 sides like Rinos, Gastown, Bombastic, NK Hrvat and even Harps.

For me, the top 2A sides felt like they haven't been proven to be strong over the past fews years(although there are exceptions for both sides). But maybe this is a transition year where the new top teams are the likes of the Storm, Snipers, Strikers, Sporting and us old guys have to accept that. haha

For me the two surprises from each group have been Campo and Euro. Campo were terrible last year and have definitely made some changes and are playing great. That goals against record is sic. Euro are in the upper mid-table(right now) after a couple of years of struggling which was strange because I thought they had a pretty solid line-up.

So what div2 side is better? Well whoever wins the cup final obviously.

Four 2A division teams classified for the BC B-Cup and only three from 2B; this is some indication. In addition, the top of 2B got easily eliminated by a team that subsequently got trashed by a 2A team. This is very telling. In any case, we are preparing and enjoying this Final Cup. Wish it would be against Rino, Norvan or GN, but sadly their teams did not were up to the level this time. Vancouver Strikers is a good team. They have very good forwards and superb centre backs, so I give them the edge on the forecasting. Once again, Campo has an uphill battle and comes as the humble underdog.
Oh God, I really do love these battles were we have to fight and work hard to survive and and dominate a superior team.

 

[Soccer Coach]

and yes @machel , I do go to church before every game and ask for the blessings to the players and team. If God wants Campo to lift the trophy this weekend, we will. If he does not, he knows why, and It is fine for me.

 

[Soccer Coach]

With great sadness, I have to inform you that one of our key players suffered a serious bicycle accident. We will miss him for the next two games. Every day I receive a bad news for the final (i.e. either player sick, suspended, or injured, or girlfriend forcing him to attend a wedding...(if me grandpa would hear this he would fall on his grave again). Anyway, perhaps the Soccer Gods are punishing us. A very difficult final awaits us.

 

[cascadesoccer]

Cup bets are ready to go http://www.takethepiss.com/sportsbook/

 

[Stringer]

Campo 1-0 25 mins into 1st half

Goal reminiscent of this:

 

[Regs]

I think the final was 2 nil

 

[Stringer]

Hey @Soccer Coach, when your dog takes a shite at the park, at least pick it up after, disgusting.

 

[STID]

Quick congrats to campo, certainly the better team on the day. Very well organized, tough to break down, and dangerous going forward, they also have some very impressive fitness in the midfield. Well earned.

 

[bulljive]

Quick congrats to campo, certainly the better team on the day. Very well organized, tough to break down, and dangerous going forward, they also have some very impressive fitness in the midfield. Well earned.

Were they unathletic and did they play a style you have never seen locally?

 

[Soccer Coach]

It was a good game today. Vancouver Strikers is a very good team. They played very intelligently and made the win very difficult...perhaps as well as Burnaby Athletic the smartest team that we have played.. Game report to follow after the Campo party...we are very happy...it was hard work to win this cup...nice party now... good times... dancing with some cute girls...

 

[STID]

Were they unathletic and did they play a style you have never seen locally?

I did think the post-game celebratory flare was a cute touch. Certainly never seen that at an amateur sporting event before!

 

[Soccer Coach]

Campo Atletico 2 - Vancouver Westside Strikers 0

1) I would like to acknowledge the work of the people in the VMSL. They did a superb job in managing the competition, and we enjoyed every moment of it.

2) The referee crew was very good for the final game and for most of the games.

3) I also would like to acknowledge our opponents in the final. The Vancouver Strikers were really worthy opposition. I can see why many people consider 2B to be a strong division. The Strikers and Harps FC gave to Campo some of their toughest games in this year. Perhaps the 2B is stronger than 2A. I have to concede.

4) This was a very difficult competition. Many strong teams were left on the road. I want to particularly mention Burnaby Athletic. In my view, they deserved to be in the final as much as Campo. They have very good players and coaches. We were lucky to tie them twice and then win on penalties.

Without further ado, the report:

It is a sunny Saturday afternoon. A tense and determined player with light blue socks and maroon shorts walks out of the field. His cleats make the distinctive noise against the pavement that announce the presence of a soccer player. He is proudly wearing a shirt that states UBC Neuroscience. As many soccer games, this final is not just a simple battle of two soccer teams. Two teams representing two different groups of people in society.

On one side, we have the Vancouver Westside. Those who live in the wealthy part of the city. The houses that have million dollar prices. The children of doctors, lawyers, and real state business people. The ones who have been blessed (and I assume also worked hard) for the privilege of enjoying the economic benefits of our society. They are the ones who have learned to play the game in academies or with hired coaches during their youth. For them, the game has a secondary meaning.

On the other side, we have Campo Atletico. Those who live in East Vancouver. The children of immigrants or immigrants themselves. The ones that can not afford to go to college or have to go everyday to sell their fruits of their labour to survive. The ones who learn to play in the streets or were taught by their siblings in the park. The ones for whom the game, the club, and the shirt has a more deep meaning.

Before the initial whistle, both teams line up and shake hands. Their players look like giants when standing next to our players, but we have learn to be confident that these difference in height will not translate into the game.

The Strikers play a very intelligent game. Tactically they press well and narrow the field of play. During the first fifteen minutes, they dominate the game. They actually create two very good scoring opportunities. This is one of the few times that I have seen the Campo defence been defeated well. However, our goalie makes two outstanding saves. The game could have easily been 2-0 for the strikers.

The first instance is a turnover. Their midfielder gets the ball and dribbles towards the defensive line and then makes a perfect pass to the diagonal run of the striker. The forward is in a one on one situation with the goalie, but he shoots rather than evading the keeper.

The second situation is a bit more dangerous. The midfielder dribbles past the holding midfielder and then makes a penetrating pass that splits the defence. The pass goes inside the penalty box, and for the love of God, I do not know how the winger did not score that goal as he was not more than 7 yards from the net against the goalie.

However, as time went by, Campo players started to do what they have done well. Possession was kept, and the Strikers ran out of gas. They only pressed with one or two strikers now. Their midfielders started to walk. Their defenders started to lose cohesion. The fun started for Campo.

The ball was kept in the back line until clear openings appeared behind the defensive line or gaps appeared on the midfield. Their two centre backs did well and with strong tackles prevented the opening of the score, but after so many tries eventually one is to be successful.

Our centre back receives the ball. He faints to kick a long ball. Their defenders retreat, so he sees the space of the midfield and makes a volley pass to our midfielder. He touches it and the ball goes bouncing to the forward. The central defender decides to come back to approach the ball, and our forward cleverly lets him come until he can chip the ball around him. The defender has been beaten and our forward is running in a one to one with the goalie. He fakes a kick to the right and as the goalie dives to one side he dribbles to the other side and then places the ball on the net.


A goal just like in the barrio. A la Chicharito against France.


Our players and their families explode in jubilation as they know that this goal is well deserved for all the hard work that they have put during the season.

The goal was a turning point in the game. The Strikers dropped their line of confrontation, and there was a bit of miscommunication between the the centre backs and full backs because huge pockets of space started to appear. The ball hit their post four times. It was really unreal how their centre backs managed to close the angles in the last shots. They even saved one goal from the line. The goalie was beaten and our forward sent the ball to the net, but their player ran like a madman and slides just to stop the ball from entering the empty net. Good for them.

Frustration started to grow among the Strikers side and they had no other option than to resort to fouls. In one of them, their players went to complain to the referee. Our forward saw this, and quickly passed the ball to our running midfielder. Their team was caught with their pants down. One on one situation against the keeper. Our midfielder wanted to do a faint like the one of Pele against Peru in 1970, but he said that he saw the keeper charging at him so he just waited for the foul. Indeed it was a cynic and silly foul from the goalkeeper. Straight red card.

The subsequent free kick was simply majestic.


Campo kept pressing for more goals, but it was not meant to be. A couple of more posts. This was not fun anymore for the Strikers, and they lost their composure. A second red card. With nine players and the championship secured, our players passed the ball until the final whistle.

Overall. A well deserved Cup championship for the Campo players. They trained hard, and they battled harder during the games. Our defenders were very solid. Our keeper made important saves, our midfielders outplayed their opponents and our forward scored the needed goals.

From the coaching perspective, I feel very pleased. The team responded well to the training philosophy of small sided games and patient possession. If you would have told me that Campo would be winning the VMSL B-Cup Final, I really would not have believed it as we practically started from zero, but the players came quickly on board with the game plans and adapted well.

This is my third cup final in a row, so I am pleased that this time ended in a win. I do feel very proud of the players as they won over many strong teams and clubs with more resources than ours (i.e. GN, Norvan, Rinos, Westside, Surrey United, etc). It is a win for the little guys that do not give up and battle with determination; the ones who were not born with a silver spoon. The ones for whom the game has a much deeper and richer meaning.

 

[dezza]

Campo Atletico 2 - Vancouver Westside Strikers 0

1) I would like to acknowledge the work of the people in the VMSL. They did a superb job in managing the competition, and we enjoyed every moment of it.

2) The referee crew was very good for the final game and for most of the games.

3) I also would like to acknowledge our opponents in the final. The Vancouver Strikers were really worthy opposition. I can see why many people consider 2B to be a strong division. The Strikers and Harps FC gave to Campo some of their toughest games in this year. Perhaps the 2B is stronger than 2A. I have to concede.

4) This was a very difficult competition. Many strong teams were left on the road. I want to particularly mention Burnaby Athletic. In my view, they deserved to be in the final as much as Campo. They have very good players and coaches. We were lucky to tie them twice and then win on penalties.

Without further ado, the report:

It is a sunny Saturday afternoon. A tense and determined player with light blue socks and maroon shorts walks out of the field. His cleats make the distinctive noise against the pavement that announce the presence of a soccer player. He is proudly wearing a shirt that states UBC Neuroscience. As many soccer games, this final is not just a simple battle of two soccer teams. Two teams representing two different groups of people in society.

On one side, we have the Vancouver Westside. Those who live in the wealthy part of the city. The houses that have million dollar prices. The children of doctors, lawyers, and real state business people. The ones who have been blessed (and I assume also worked hard) for the privilege of enjoying the economic benefits of our society. They are the ones who have learned to play the game in academies or with hired coaches during their youth. For them, the game has a secondary meaning.

On the other side, we have Campo Atletico. Those who live in East Vancouver. The children of immigrants or immigrants themselves. The ones that can not afford to go to college or have to go everyday to sell their fruits of their labour to survive. The ones who learn to play in the streets or were taught by their siblings in the park. The ones for whom the game, the club, and the shirt has a more deep meaning.

Before the initial whistle, both teams line up and shake hands. Their players look like giants when standing next to our players, but we have learn to be confident that these difference in height will not translate into the game.

The Strikers play a very intelligent game. Tactically they press well and narrow the field of play. During the first fifteen minutes, they dominate the game. They actually create two very good scoring opportunities. This is one of the few times that I have seen the Campo defence been defeated well. However, our goalie makes two outstanding saves. The game could have easily been 2-0 for the strikers.

The first instance is a turnover. Their midfielder gets the ball and dribbles towards the defensive line and then makes a perfect pass to the diagonal run of the striker. The forward is in a one on one situation with the goalie, but he shoots rather than evading the keeper.

The second situation is a bit more dangerous. The midfielder dribbles past the holding midfielder and then makes a penetrating pass that splits the defence. The pass goes inside the penalty box, and for the love of God, I do not know how the winger did not score that goal as he was not more than 7 yards from the net against the goalie.

However, as time went by, Campo players started to do what they have done well. Possession was kept, and the Strikers ran out of gas. They only pressed with one or two strikers now. Their midfielders started to walk. Their defenders started to lose cohesion. The fun started for Campo.

The ball was kept in the back line until clear openings appeared behind the defensive line or gaps appeared on the midfield. Their two centre backs did well and with strong tackles prevented the opening of the score, but after so many tries eventually one is to be successful.

Our centre back receives the ball. He faints to kick a long ball. Their defenders retreat, so he sees the space of the midfield and makes a volley pass to our midfielder. He touches it and the ball goes bouncing to the forward. The central defender decides to come back to approach the ball, and our forward cleverly lets him come until he can chip the ball around him. The defender has been beaten and our forward is running in a one to one with the goalie. He fakes a kick to the right and as the goalie dives to one side he dribbles to the other side and then places the ball on the net.
View attachment 13711

A goal just like in the barrio. A la Chicharito against France.


Our players and their families explode in jubilation as they know that this goal is well deserved for all the hard work that they have put during the season.

The goal was a turning point in the game. The Strikers dropped their line of confrontation, and there was a bit of miscommunication between the the centre backs and full backs because huge pockets of space started to appear. The ball hit their post four times. It was really unreal how their centre backs managed to close the angles in the last shots. They even saved one goal from the line. The goalie was beaten and our forward sent the ball to the net, but their player ran like a madman and slides just to stop the ball from entering the empty net. Good for them.

Frustration started to grow among the Strikers side and they had no other option than to resort to fouls. In one of them, their players went to complain to the referee. Our forward saw this, and quickly passed the ball to our running midfielder. Their team was caught with their pants down. One on one situation against the keeper. Our midfielder wanted to do a faint like the one of Pele against Peru in 1970, but he said that he saw the keeper charging at him so he just waited for the foul. Indeed it was a cynic and silly foul from the goalkeeper. Straight red card.

The subsequent free kick was simply majestic.


Campo kept pressing for more goals, but it was not meant to be. A couple of more posts. This was not fun anymore for the Strikers, and they lost their composure. A second red card. With nine players and the championship secured, our players passed the ball until the final whistle.

Overall. A well deserved Cup championship for the Campo players. They trained hard, and they battled harder during the games. Our defenders were very solid. Our keeper made important saves, our midfielders outplayed their opponents and our forward scored the needed goals.

From the coaching perspective, I feel very pleased. The team responded well to the training philosophy of small sided games and patient possession. If you would have told me that Campo would be winning the VMSL B-Cup Final, I really would not have believed it as we practically started from zero, but the players came quickly on board with the game plans and adapted well.

This is my third cup final in a row, so I am pleased that this time ended in a win. I do feel very proud of the players as they won over many strong teams and clubs with more resources than ours (i.e. GN, Norvan, Rinos, Westside, Surrey United, etc). It is a win for the little guys that do not give up and battle with determination; the ones who were not born with a silver spoon. The ones for whom the game has a much deeper and richer meaning.

 

[The Vulgar Bulgar]

As an immigrant myself, I appreciated how accurately you described the game yet managed to underscore the fact that any success The Strikers have had in this tournament (and in life, really) should be attributed to the incredible privilege they were born into. However, your objective eye missed one crucial point in the game that I wanted to add here.

Before the upper-middle class, silver-spoon-fed Strikers resorted to fouling, one tiny Campo player was able to rise up from adversity, and kick his foot up towards one of the giants that towered over him, figuratively and literally smashing the face of oppression. For me, that foul was about so much more than the college he was unable to attend and UBC Neuroscience shirt he would never wear. He was the little campo player that could and it was simply majestic.

 

[Soccer Coach]

I really did not witness the event that you describe. Perhaps it happened. I can attest you that we do not have malicious players. I have seen them practice and play, and they do not try to hurt people even when upset. Any player that plays trying to injury people is given a refund and encouraged to leave the team and club.

Of course, those with economic privilege will always justify their position morally in one way or another or delude themselves into thinking that is their own individual doing.

If you live in the Westside, you might no realize how privileged you are by world standards (whether you were born there might be irrelevant; your parents had the resources to bring you there as supposed to East Hastings or Commercial Drive). Since you were conceived, you already were given a good life much better than the average person in the country or the planet. A game might not mean much to you, because you have other things to enjoy. No problem on this and good for you, but at least do not look down on those who are not as fortunate as you. These little successes or moments of joy might be one of the few things that some players might ever have in this year.

One perceived hit from one player, and then this justify retaliating on the entire team and injuring people? I do not think so.

 

[gunners]

I really did not witness the event that you describe. Perhaps it happened. I can attest you that we do not have malicious players. I have seen them practice and play, and they do not try to hurt people even when upset. Any player that plays trying to injury people is given a refund and encouraged to leave the team and club.

Of course, those with economic privilege will always justify their position morally in one way or another or delude themselves into thinking that is their own individual doing.

If you live in the Westside, you might no realize how privileged you are by world standards (whether you were born there might be irrelevant; your parents had the resources to bring you there as supposed to East Hastings or Commercial Drive). Since you were conceived, you already were given a good life much better than the average person in the country or the planet. A game might not mean much to you, because you have other things to enjoy. No problem on this and good for you, but at least do not look down on those who are not as fortunate as you. These little successes or moments of joy might be one of the few things that some players might ever have in this year.

One perceived hit from one player, and then this justify retaliating on the entire team and injuring people? I do not think so.

As u know we had a player sent off for retaliation. Even u pointed that out soccer coach in ur unbelievable (unbelievable because there were many there witnessing a different game than the one u r ported it to be) game report. This seems to be a a recurring event. Other team players being sent off for retaliation against ur players...Hmmmm maybe ur players aren't quite the angels u say they r. They r just sneaky little buggers. Guess they learned to be like that in the dirt laid streets they learned their soccer in. Too bad they didn't get to play on grass like the rest of the world who eats with silver spoons. Just saying