TSS commencing an action against the BCSA

[Captain Shamrock]

I'll be blunt. BCSA, over the last 6-7 years has taken a provincial program and turned it into a money making venture. When we played for Provincial teams(guess what there were no Academies anywhere) if you were fortunate enough to make the team, you would get a track suit, a bag, and a trip to somewhere. Somewhere along the line, money has become an issue. IF YOU WANT TO PLAY PROVINCIALLY YOU HAVE TO GO TO OUR DEVELOPMENT CAMP. NOWHERE ELSE IS GOOD ENOUGH BECAUSE TO BE QUITE HONEST, IT WOULD CUT DOWN ON THE MONEY WE MAKE.

Sorry, but BCSA has tried to monopolize a market over the last lot of years by dangling carrots in front of the players.....A couple of years ago.....if you want to ever have a chance at a National team you HAVE to go to the BCSA 'Academy'. Please don't tell that didn't happen. I had players/parents who were involved at the time telling me that. There are many good development programs around the province and the BCSA does not have to be the end all in terms of developing to higher levels......

 

[trece verde]

Kind of two minds about this issue. On one hand, I feel that people should have the right to waste their money however they see fit, and if that includes putting Junior in a privately-run development program to better his/her skills, so be it.

On the other hand, these organizations should still be able to operate under the auspices of the Provincial governing body. That being said, BCSA should NOT be trying to run for-profit camps of its own in competition with the private bodies, but should concentrate solely on being a governing body for the betterment of all involved in the sport.

This includes kids who are good enough to qualify for provincial level teams. A responsible governing body should be able to reasonably identify provincial-level players, whether within or without the system. That being said, under no circumstances should anyone ever have to pay to play for a provincial team. Making the team should be based solely on your ability to play the game, not on how thick Dad's wallet is. Amateur soccer shouldn't be a money grab like it is now.

The truth with the TSS situation obviously lies somewhere between the two polarities, and like Regs says, the timing is more than a bit syspicious. Vic goes to become CSA VP and Keith Ryan goes to BC Cycling; all of a sudden TSS who've been playing good guys for so long stop toeing the line and feel the need to litigate? What up wit dat?

As a parent of two young players and as a coach of a team on the cusp (U14), I have a difficult time recommending to parents who want to give their kids that extra bit of development opportunity. There are now too many options; too many paths with potential dead ends for talented players to fall off the radar.

BCSA needs to encourage player development, but conversely, the private academies need to also be responsible back to the provincial governing body. The bottom line is that everybody needs to stop being selfish and consider what's best for the players.

Trece

 

[barney]

"The Whitecaps have special status because of DDC status, and because of their Yleague teams and IPL.... ."
Interestingly, the Caps operated outside the BCSA with the SuperY teams and like Fraser Vallley and the Island applied for associate memberships for their teams. This was turned down at Board level. Next season, the Caps became the saviour of the Greater Vancouver soccer by being elevated to DDC status. Interesting how a private business (oops, foundation) could be given the right to develop all players in the Vancouver area. On the island the SuperY was taken from the group that started it and given to the local BCSA Youth association.
I do not think that TSS is concerned about the timing of elections and change in personel, I think that this legal action had been planned for a long time, but not presented because it was hoped that it could be resolved through meetings. Instead, BCSA sanctions has increased against TSS teams, thus neccessitating the possible legal action. If only common sense has prevailed in the past......

 

[Regs]

BCSA has addressed this issue it appears head on by pointing out the rules have always been in place:

http://www.bcsoccer.net/bcsa/tabid/...icleId/334/Affiliation-of-Soccer-Schools.aspx

Judging from that, I really can't see how a legal action could go in favour of TSS?

 

[wednesday]

That rules summary is just somebody's opinion. In fact 2 and more years ago the Whitecaps could not affiliate under article 3e because their y league teams are not professional. Now suddenly they can?
Article 71b does give the board the power to move changes to the rules. Given their bigger view of the picture they should ones instigating changes.

Reality check: In the past 6 years my kids have attended all 3 academies and played and travelled for BC, the Whitecaps, and TSS. In all three cases their involvement cost me about $100 per month and from $2000 to 3000 for the spring/summer per child. The BC team went to Scotland, The whitecaps to North Carolina and Florida and TSS to California (it was the cheapest). It's all a commercial operation. The differences? I've witnessed good and bad with BC and Whitecaps, I've witnessed good with TSS

 

[crafty cokcney]

Reality check: In the past 6 years my kids have attended all 3 academies and played and travelled for BC, the Whitecaps, and TSS. In all three cases their involvement cost me about $100 per month and from $2000 to 3000 for the spring/summer per child. The BC team went to Scotland, The whitecaps to North Carolina and Florida and TSS to California (it was the cheapest). It's all a commercial operation. The differences? I've witnessed good and bad with BC and Whitecaps, I've witnessed good with TSS

This would indicate to me that in the best interests of both parents and youth player development, that the personell at TSS should be involved with BCSA and/or the Whitecaps. I'm sure they have some very organized people in their administration department as well as very good coaching staff.

What would this achieve..?

1) Less financial burden on parents.
2) Less fragmented player pool for BCSA and Whitecaps to choose from making this Province's so called best teams, better than they are right now.
3) Possible improvement in the operations of BCSA and the Whitecaps for player development and coaching for the Provinces best players.

What I don't see is TSS, or any other academy program for that matter, actually buying into this as they would have to drop their own programs for their elite players. None of these academy programs should be trying to compete with BCSA or the Whitecaps. If this is the direction that the CSA has decided to implement in accordance with their own mandate as set by FIFA, then so be it.

 

[knvb]

From the local Richmond rag

Soccer academy seeks right to play tournaments



By Don Fennell
Staff Reporter
Jun 03 2006


An off-field battle that has been brewing for some time appears headed for B.C. Supreme Court.

Richmond's Total Soccer Systems has filed a statement of claim against the B.C. Soccer Association saying the governing body is preventing it from participating in out-of-province tournaments.

"We've been running Total Soccer Systems since 1997 and have travelled out of province with the permission of our association, and without any issues at all, until about 2001," said Colin Elmes, head coach and co-owner of the local soccer academy.

Now, Total Soccer Systems can't attend tournaments it used to participate in in Washington state, due to B.C. Soccer requesting the Washington State Youth Soccer Association not to allow the soccer academy to play.

In response to what it indicates have been "substantial enquiries relating to the affiliation of soccer schools," the B.C. Soccer Association has posted a notice on its website. It says current bylaws "do not permit the affiliation of soccer schools."

Elmes said he has no problem with any youth teams-including the Vancouver Whitecaps' youth teams-being granted permission to travel, but said it is unfair the Whitecaps are recognized by the B.C. Soccer Association and not his soccer school. But the B.C. Soccer Association says the Whitecaps are affiliated because teams in membership with Canadian or international professional leagues are recognized.

The B.C. Soccer Association says on its website that neither the board of directors nor staff has the power to change its bylaws, rules or regulations without the approval of its membership. While the association is holding its annual general meeting this weekend, any proposed amendments had to be received at least 45 days prior. Proposed amendments also require at least a 75 per cent majority of support from eligible voters.

Elmes said as the years have gone by the problems have grown like a virus.

"I don't want to do this," Elmes said. "We have tried to solve this in an amicable way and tried to create dialogue. We're not suing them for membership status, but for stopping us going to Washington state. Obviously now it's (also) affecting our business."

Elmes said he welcomed an open playing field where programs would be held more accountable and thereby produce a climate of better player development.

"I want a response from B.C. Soccer," he said. "The climate in the Lower Mainland is being impacted significantly. This year we had 51 kids train here who were selected to provincial teams. Some have been coming here for years and are starting to feel uncomfortable pressure to not attend our programs anymore."

The B.C. Soccer Association could not be reached for comment.

Total Soccer Systems runs a variety of soccet programs and runs a school-based soccer academy at R.C. Palmer Secondary.

 

[coachrich]

Game on and I hope it's a good move for all -

TSS Academy Takes Legal Action Against BC Soccer

Friday, 11 May 2012

This is to inform our membership that on May 10, 2012 TSS Academy along with its parent company, Sportstown BC Holdings Ltd, issued the British Columbia Soccer Association (BCSA) with a Notice of Civil Claim. It's unfortunate that conditions have brought our organization to this point. However, we feel compelled to pursue this course of action in order to defend the interests of TSS Academy and Sportstown BC Holdings. To ensure there's full transparency, and to ensure there's no misunderstanding over the nature of our grievances, we have published the Notice of Claim at: http://www.tssacademy.com/docs/bcsa-claim-may10-2012.pdf Regards, Colin Elmes Director TSS Academy tssacademy.com - HOME 604-816-9611

Member Info News for above
http://tssacademy.com - TSS Academy Takes Legal Action Against BC Soccer


Notice of Civil Claim
http://tssacademy.com/docs/bcsa-claim-may10-2012.pdf

 

[Regs]

http://www.takethepiss.com/forums/news-announcements/17265-wheres-elmo.html

 

[PV]

The Judge has ruled against TSS, with legal costs against TSS, but he is allowing TSS to file a narrow claim concerning whether TSS is a full associate member or a limited associate member, and if its a full associate member whether TSS has suffered any damages related to BCSA treating TSS as a limited associate member.
It will be interesting to see if TSS will spend more money to pursue the matter further.

 

[Rangerforever]

I suppose that could depend on whether TSS's bank account is full or limited.

 

[Reccos]

The Judge has ruled against TSS, with legal costs against TSS, but he is allowing TSS to file a narrow claim concerning whether TSS is a full associate member or a limited associate member, and if its a full associate member whether TSS has suffered any damages related to BCSA treating TSS as a limited associate member.
It will be interesting to see if TSS will spend more money to pursue the matter further.

http://www.bcsoccer.net/news/post/judgement-and-reasons-of-the-supreme-court

Not a lawyer but I read a little less than half of the Reasons for Judgment if for no other reason than to remind myself that any time you choose to launch a suit there is a very large risk that you will lose and you will end up having to bear the costs borne by the defendant.

PV - As I read it the judge is saying that the plaintiff might have a cause of action for breach of contract and while the judge inquired of plaintiff's counsel if that was where they were going earlier on int the proceedings - the plaintiff (if I am correct from memory) didn't reply to that IIRC and there was no indication or even specific allegation of a contractual relationship with BCSA by the plaintiffs (my words...not the judge's).

The defendant wins on the issues the judge did assess as he did not find that the plaintiff had a cause of action.

I have seen cases where the judge doesn't get the issue and tosses it and the plaintiffs out of cash finally drop their case.

BCSA certainly was represented by a top law firm with lots of talent and resources which is necessary when you have money riding on the outcome.

 

[Reccos]

From the local Richmond rag

When you read the story in the newspaper as to what the issue is it sounds very simple. If I read the story correctly, TSS wants BCSA to approve their teams traveling and playing in other tournaments outside the province - very, very reasonable it seems to me. But failing to get this issue resolved with discussions they believed there only recourse was to take legal action.

However when it gets to filing a suit it has to be based on the law and there is never, ever one side to the law when it comes to civil litigation. The simple becomes complex and both parties have case law to be argue but it doesn't work out for the plaintiff.

One part of the judgment that speaks to how complex litigation is is in this paragraph where the judge uses words like "unfocussed and somewhat obscure."

"[38]

Although the evidence that was filed–namely,affidavits from Roger Barnes,the president of the BCSA, and Colin Elmes, a director of the plaintiffs–was not particularly controversial, I found that it was necessary to refer to it to understand the nature of the plaintiffs’claim. Perhaps the defendant might have sought particulars of the plaintiffs’claim which, on its face, is unfocussed and somewhat obscure, but in order to decide whether there were reasonable causes of action pleaded, I found that I had to refer to more than just the pleadings. That included evidence of the defendant’s constitution, as well as information relating to some of the plaintiffs’ complaints. I also found that I had to refer to the affidavit evidence before me to understand the nature of the defendant society, its regulations, and its relationship with the CSA and FIFA."

I am not commenting on the merits of the plaintiff's filings or arguments or if the judge got it right or not, but this is not the first case I've seen where a judge doesn't see the issue clearly as it is presented with case law citings and despite a plaintiff having a case the plaintiff when it hits a road block like this simply abandons their case as they run out of resources or interest or both.

Less expensive options are where organizations use dispute resolution techniques like mediation or arbitration to settle disputes. But even this area requires lawyers and this is not cheap.

BCSA members would have the right to ask their leadership why they don't just let TSS teams travel and get sanctioned versus bother to go to expensive litigation. Despite the judgment awarding costs to the defendant, it is not usual that the winner gets its full legal costs paid.

As to parents wanting their kid to get good soccer development, they should heed Juergen Klinnsman's words but likely no, as some are living their lives vicariously through their kids:

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1679...lieves-pickup-and-playground-soccer-is-key-to

The German-born former striker was 10 years old when his country hosted and won the 1974 World Cup, and says that his development into an international superstar wasn’t dependent on being able to afford expensive fees charged by top youth clubs, nor the ambition to earn a scholarship to a top high school or collegiate program.

Though he did participate in the club structure like many Americans, the financial burden on Klinsmann was small by comparison and his development was more a result of playing the game as much as possible simply because he loved to.

“At that time, when that happened in ’74, all the kids, all they wanted to do all day long was kick the ball around because soccer dominates our country,” Klinsmann told Goal.com in an exclusive interview. “So every kid out there watching the World Cup, and seeing the team in the World Cup, right after the game, they were just running out in the streets and wanting to kick the ball around. Wherever there was a little piece of grass or maybe just in the backyard.”

Now the head coach of the U.S. national team, Klinsmann says the approach to soccer in Germany is a bit more similar to basketball in the United States --- a combination of pickup and playground play as well as organized teams --- than it is to the U.S. soccer culture, which for so long has revolved around structured training and having to pay to play for youth soccer clubs or organizations.

 

[Reccos]

I couldn't fix my typos as I didn't see them until later.

like... "there ..recourse" and Jurgen.

Why did BCSA not just approve their trips?

Anyone know this?

 

[PV]

I

Why did BCSA not just approve their trips?
Anyone know this?

Maybe Elmo or someone else will add to the discussion. The complaint about not approving trips is old and was addressed after TSS complained (threatened legal action) and BCSA changed its constitution to creat a category of membership referred to as "limited associate member". TSS now gets it trips approved so its teams can play in tournaments, and it can host tournaments.

 

[Reccos]

Maybe Elmo or someone else will add to the discussion. The complaint about not approving trips is old and was addressed after TSS complained (threatened legal action) and BCSA changed its constitution to creat a category of membership referred to as "limited associate member". TSS now gets it trips approved so its teams can play in tournaments, and it can host tournaments.

Thanks PV. I know there was more than the trip issue in the writ and filings and I even think they took IIRC a stab at the Competition Act.

I suspect if TSS has not decided its next steps Colin might choose to not speak publicly on this. Certainly if the issues of costs is not fully decided - no one at TSS will fan the flames.

 

[Colin Elmes]

Thanks PV. I know there was more than the trip issue in the writ and filings and I even think they took IIRC a stab at the Competition Act.

I suspect if TSS has not decided its next steps Colin might choose to not speak publicly on this. Certainly if the issues of costs is not fully decided - no one at TSS will fan the flames.

There will be a release out shortly on this. I appreciate everyones legal opinion on here.

 

[Reccos]

There will be a release out shortly on this. I appreciate everyones legal opinion on here.

LOL.

We are I think lay people here with no real understanding and not pretending to have much of how this was decided by the judge. And none of us heard the proceedings and I suspect like me didn't read the entire judgment and if we/I had -wouldn't fully appreciate all the legal precedents if we did read it.

I just know that in my experience anything can happen when you litigate.

I agree with the Captain's earlier comments about the costs of soccer - based it seems on the premise that other sports cost more so why not this game - and the premise that if we keep re-organizing that we'll get better players. Paying to be on a provincial team seems a bit much.

 

[dezza]

Not at all! And none of my other comments are suggesting anything of the sort. Bob Birarda's contribution to soccer and player development in BC has been second to none over the years.

I feel like this comment hasn't aged particularly well

 

[Dude]

Looks like TSS got their admittance into the BCPL today, along with Langley, North Van, & Van United.

BC Soccer

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