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Things that make you say WTF?

Yoda

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But isn't that the crux of the issue? How do you define/delineate the good from the bad?

When people speak of the bad guys, pretty sure they are not meaning the people who are committing these mass murder episodes...
But some of the bad guys are illegal gun sellers so part of the argument is if you really want to commit a shooting there’s always a way to get a gun. Taking guns away from the recreational gun owner won’t fix that.
 

mtkb

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But isn't that the crux of the issue? How do you define/delineate the good from the bad?

When people speak of the bad guys, pretty sure they are not meaning the people who are committing these mass murder episodes...
the 2A people are. their point is that having more "good guys" with guns increases the chances of neutralizing the threat quickly and efficiently.

my view would be that you delineate as best as possible with stricter background checks for purchasing the weapons. trick is 2A proofing any such legislation. shady dealers are one of many ways people can always get their hands on a gun but I think you do what you can to make it harder for the wrong people to get guns. that means, first and foremost, that any mental health red flags put you to the back of the bus.

that in and of itself is tricky - there was a mass shooting in Florida not long ago where the shooter had a lengthy mental health history as a youth, but it was sealed - with predictable results...
 
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Yoda

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Not to mention the fact that there’s still the “normal guy next door” that never shows signs until he does with a semi automatic
 

bulljive

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Canada is just a different animal. Surrey which has been a hub for gang activity/shootings over the last 10 + years and I give it zero thought. I live here and never once felt I need my own gun to protect my family. Maybe that would change after a break-in situation while home.

It’s just bizarre to continue to go down the same path incident after incident. When you start researching the numbers in the USA, it’s staggering. Other first world countries don’t have these issues to anywhere near the same level. The mentality of everyone walking around with firearm training with guns is absolutely crazy to me. Carrying live weapons ? Huh? Does anyone think that’s ever going to prevent more problems then it solves.

We are all capable of violence. The last thing I need is a gun when I’m hungry, Caught in traffic and some fcuker threatens me. It’s happened more then once. I don’t have any doubt I could be pushed to make an irrational decision.

Government control and invasion of privacy and “rights” is starting to crawl into the world of being “woke” for me. Sorry but I’d say more people need rules, structure, guidance then those that don’t. Yes there needs to be limits to that but Most people aren’t “good” they think they are Until it means they have to sacrifice what may be important to them. “Religious beliefs, wealth, business, lifestyle.” Most People will be good when it’s easy to be. Sacrifice though, please.
 

Rangerforever

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These fcuking morons have to get over the fact it simply isn't 1791 anymore FFS.
Their right to bear arms mentality and abiding by it for over 200 fcuking years needs to updated to get the fcuk over themselves and figure out some modern guard rails.

I went to a gun range for the first time in my life a year ago for some fun.
It made me shite my pants a bit to be honest and actually sick to my stomach feeling the power of these weapons and knowing anyone could acquire them down south.
It's fcuking ridiculous.
 

mtkb

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Not to mention the fact that there’s still the “normal guy next door” that never shows signs until he does with a semi automatic
right, but again, you're trying be as preventative as possible while acknowledging that you'll never get 100%. When these incidents do happen they don't necessarily mean what you're doing isn't working - nothing is going to be perfect...
 

mtkb

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Canada is just a different animal. Surrey which has been a hub for gang activity/shootings over the last 10 + years and I give it zero thought. I live here and never once felt I need my own gun to protect my family. Maybe that would change after a break-in situation while home.

It’s just bizarre to continue to go down the same path incident after incident. When you start researching the numbers in the USA, it’s staggering. Other first world countries don’t have these issues to anywhere near the same level. The mentality of everyone walking around with firearm training with guns is absolutely crazy to me. Carrying live weapons ? Huh? Does anyone think that’s ever going to prevent more problems then it solves.

We are all capable of violence. The last thing I need is a gun when I’m hungry, Caught in traffic and some fcuker threatens me. It’s happened more then once. I don’t have any doubt I could be pushed to make an irrational decision.

Government control and invasion of privacy and “rights” is starting to crawl into the world of being “woke” for me. Sorry but I’d say more people need rules, structure, guidance then those that don’t. Yes there needs to be limits to that but Most people aren’t “good” they think they are Until it means they have to sacrifice what may be important to them. “Religious beliefs, wealth, business, lifestyle.” Most People will be good when it’s easy to be. Sacrifice though, please.
1) that's what they want - to exhaust people enough that they wear them down to the point that they're tired of hearing from the rights defenders that theyre ultimately able to just buffalo through. that's why it's so important for the legal profession - and others - to make it our hill to die on. Societies without true individual rights and freedoms go downhill very quickly, without exception. Individual rights are infinitely more important than woke nonsense - I would argue the latter is almost the antithesis of the former (I know that wasn't your point, I digress).

2) the part about carrying live weapons - those on the other side of the argument think you are just as bat shite crazy to NOT see why it makes perfect sense to carry a loaded, concealed weapon. they strap up every morning after putting on their underwear and go about their day just like you and I do without a weapon. i'm not a gun guy and certainly think less guns in society overall is better, but they do have rational arguments and there is exactly zero chance of knocking them off of them. I think background checks for the crazies is as far as you'll ever get them to go - and even that's a maybe. hell, they fought like hell to keep bump stock availability after the Vegas massacre...
 

Yoda

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Waited until he was legally able to buy guns to do it.
Maybe we restrict ages to what they are allowed to by? Does a teenager need to have an AR15? Does anyone?
Surely there are some restrictions that gun proponents would agree are for the better no?
 

mtkb

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why did everyone ignore the warning signs such that he managed to make it to his 18th birthday and was able to waltz in and buy the gun? I really don't understand all these people that say "we need laws" - this one didn't work, for reasons that have nothing to do with the law itself. Bizarro logic.
 

Regs

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Bizarro logic includes ability to buy gun and have great potential to harm others at 18 but can't drink until 21 so you don't hurt yourself.
 

Canucks4Ever

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1) that's what they want - to exhaust people enough that they wear them down to the point that they're tired of hearing from the rights defenders that theyre ultimately able to just buffalo through. that's why it's so important for the legal profession - and others - to make it our hill to die on. Societies without true individual rights and freedoms go downhill very quickly, without exception. Individual rights are infinitely more important than woke nonsense - I would argue the latter is almost the antithesis of the former (I know that wasn't your point, I digress).

2) the part about carrying live weapons - those on the other side of the argument think you are just as bat shite crazy to NOT see why it makes perfect sense to carry a loaded, concealed weapon. they strap up every morning after putting on their underwear and go about their day just like you and I do without a weapon. i'm not a gun guy and certainly think less guns in society overall is better, but they do have rational arguments and there is exactly zero chance of knocking them off of them. I think background checks for the crazies is as far as you'll ever get them to go - and even that's a maybe. hell, they fought like hell to keep bump stock availability after the Vegas massacre...
Isn't this a bit of a straw man argument though?

"If we give an inch on gun control, then government intervention will run rampant."

Maybe. But you can't prove a negative. With that logic you could pretty much trot that out any time new legislation came in.

That is not really the overall issue here though. At least not for me. That is just the talking point that gun proponents shift the focus too.

"Ya we think mass shootings of little kids are terrible, but there is nothing we can do because if we did restrict access to firearms it would be a totalitarian exercise of government power infringing on the constitution. So we are stuck."

For me, I see the issue as one of problem solving.

Assuming all sides agree (always tricky in today's climate...) that there are too many mass shootings and innocent people dying, then it is time to try to find a solution. People are quick to point to New Zealand or other jurisdictions where gun control measures have worked and opponents are equally quick to say "well, that would never work in the US."

Maybe it would make things better, maybe it wouldn't. But you have not tried anything, so how can you know? Again, you can't prove a negative.

Despite the ones that are often trotted out onto TV, there are some brilliant political and legal minds in the US. Surely they can find a way to create some legislation that would provide a novel way of addressing the problem of mass shootings that does not offend their second amendment rights.

At the far end of extreme, there would be the option to enact a new amendment to the constitution repealing the second amendment. This has happened before (the 18th amendment brought in prohibition, the 21st amendment took it out; the 11th, 12th and 14th amendments all modified the original founding Articles of the Constitution). So, legally, this is possible - but I think everyone can agree (again, tricky...) that this is likely too extreme and there is definitely not the political will to get this done.

The other end of that spectrum, at least in my mind, is doing nothing.

Surely there must be room to move down that spectrum even a little, just based on the staggering numbers. Yes, correlation does not necessarily equal causation, but the US has by far the most guns per capita as well as the most shooting deaths per capita and the most mass shootings of any first world country, and it is not close.

Will the New Zealand model or the Canada model or the UK model or any other model work? Maybe not. But there must be a "Made in America" solution to this problem for them, something they can call all their own.

And if it truly does nothing or, somehow, makes things worse, you can always go back (see: prohibition).

Circling back to the overarching problem. For me it is their two party political system. Every decision is now a team sport. F^ck thinking logically or rationally. If gun control measures come in it means the "left" won, "wokeism" won, the democrats won, the "other team" won. This is the line that I see in the sand. It is not about gun control or government intervention or how many people died - it is about your "team" winning.

Anyway, I wish them the best. There is no question that it is a massively complex issue with legal layers as well as plenty of emotion and symbolism and misunderstood motives and reasons for taking various positions.

We all know how it ends though... "Breaking News - 35 people of (insert: age, ethnicity, religion) were gunned down in the deadliest mass shooting in (insert: state, city, neighbourhood) since (insert: period of time that probably seems way too short...)
 

Michael

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Agreed with Canucks4Ever both in name and comment.

Not going to argue with people having personal rights, nor am I going to argue that laws = safer country. The lawyers (no offense to those in the profession) will both protect the law to the letter and argue the loopholes as a result.

What doesn't need a lawyer to interpret? - $200 for a around of ammunition? Or charge it as a % of your income tax bracket! Tax it, control it, limit it like a controlled substance. Make it as expensive as seeing a doctor in the US without insurance? Not just the actual ammunition, but the ingredients that allow people to make their own.

Something else except seeing more unqualified people using weapons. How far away is the US from running 'active shooter drills' to 'Grade 4 firearms training after recess'?

Difference between a good guy with a gun and a bad guy with a gun: 2 inches and a racial slur.
 

mtkb

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All good arguments (except for the lawyer one - this is one of the few areas we aren't really to blame in any appreciable way), except that the 2A crowd's response is that the optimal solution to each is more guns, not less. It's not that the arguments are strawmen - it's just a fundamentally different world view when it comes to guns - much like the culture war clash between classical liberalism and critical race theory. Makes it exceedingly difficult to find any common ground.

With respect to the "give an inch" argument, the problem is that it ends up being death by a thousand cuts. You don't end up there today, or tommorrow, but eventually you wake up and realize that the cumulative effect of the rights that have been taken away has become quite profound.

I don't say that I'm on that page with the gun issue - I think my position on background checks etc makes it clear that I'm not there at this point. But, it is a valid concern to raise in general terms.

Anyway, here's an example of the 2A logic to gun control:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/man-..._medium=social&utm_campaign=dwbrand&fs=e&s=cl
 

PV

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The NRA solution is to have more guns. Imagine if all the kids in grade 2 and 3 had guns, then the shooter might have killed a couple children before other children killed him. Any faults in the NRA logic?
 

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