Referee Improvement

[Yoda]

I'm almost there myself.
Great way to stay fit, be around the game, and make some cash as well. Sure beats running on a tread mill. I think.

I think you just proved my point about attracting the wrong people by raising the pay

i agree with experience being important @Canucks4Ever , but having said that even those guys have problems reading a tackle and the malice in it. shite the 2 guys IN the tackle never agree on it most times.

But the experience of having played in a tough games in order to know when to let games play and when to nip things in the bud, is important.

I still say that the increase in pay lately has neither improved reffing nor got us any new good ones. Will even more money do it?

 

[Yoda]

There's a few refs who want me to pick up the whistle. Mainly because my level of play on the field has been shocking the last few seasons

Apparently after certification you have to ref youth for a year and then you can ref adult soccer.

https://www.bcsoccer.net/referee-clinics

I'm in my late 30s and I know some refs still play as well in their 40's. Really good discussion here.

Are they evaluated after that year or just auto promoted to adult?
I can tell you that most of the ones doing youth now would not get a good reception in adult

 

[machel]

@Yoda ,
That's just what one of the refs told me. I'll have to look in to it more. There's a ref clinic next week mon-wed at willoboughy. I might go check that out. If I do, I'll let ya know!

 

[dezza]

I'd just like to point out that there is a full-time Referee Development Co-ordinator employed by BC Soccer. Shouldn't he be the one to address these issues?

Perhaps the VMSL needs a referee liason to work with him to have the league's needs met? I notice MWSL has both a referee scheduler and a "Head Referee" who I assume would have this responsibility, whereas VMSL has only a scheduler.

 

[Schweinsteiger*31]

Increasing salary doesn't necessarily translate into increase in the quality of referees. It's only incentive for someone who loves the game to get involved. I guess it can encourage youngsters to become involved.

Haven't read previous posts so maybe someone has brought this up, but I'd also suggest to have a ranking system for referees (not sure if there is one in place) and have teams rate the referee's performance along with constructive feedback (i.e. identify exactly what calls were missed/wrong, and what they'd like to see the referee improve himself in). It could be useful info for the whoever schedules referees to schedule higher rated ones to ref the more difficult games and earn more $ while lower rated referees can ref less difficult lower division games which are easier to manage, and it could be motivation for them to improve themselves.

 

[Dude]

Says the guy who "in no way- will want [his] daughter becoming a ref"...

Are we to assume then that you'd be okay with it then if the "conditions and pay" improved???

I also said she would make her own decision on that, I'll support her. But fcuk, yeah, I'd want pay and conditions improved! Especially conditions. More safety and support. I love seeing mentors out watching games, if we can somehow have more of that. Also, hard fines for coaches that "go off" on kids. That, unfortunately, is the grey area...but I had one opposing coach a couple of years ago loose his shite on the 14 yo official. It went on, and on, and I just stood by and made sure it didn't get physical. Right after, I pulled the lad aside and told him he didn't deserve that, that he did a great job, and the coach was just pissed because we stomped his squad. But, I also wrote a letter that went up and down his club- because the fcuker was WAY out of line in how he was dressing down the young man after the match.

Full disclosure: I also had a small snap show on a ref in a match last year. Small one. One of my players was injured on a dirty tackle and I lost my shite, but I quickly smartened up. The kid was about 15. Then the mentor came over, and we really went at it. I totally lost my shite on him. I was rightfully called to the carpet in my club, more to answer for my spat w/ the mentor, not the ref. In the ref's report, he stated he did not card me, but probably should have. Yes, he probably should have. I got lucky: the mentor didn't run it up BC Soccer. Likely because he was just as out of line as I was, we were having a real go at each other. Never got physical, but it was close.

Bottom line: none of us are perfect, and we're all emotional.

 

[Dude]

I've been doing both for the last five years, and love it. But I wouldn't do it for free. Not a chance.

I don't think paying more would increase the quality of officiating at all. In fact I think it would actually make it worse. You'd get the crappy guys reffing more to make more money. There are guys up here that will do 4-5 games a day. Think how crappy a 60 year old man would be in his fourth game of the day in the summer up here. Brutal. Personally I limit myself to 2 and I try to leave at least a game gap between.

I love you, but this is the stupidest argument ever.

No disrespect.

If you had more qualified guys, those guys would not be able to do 4-5 games a day. They'd be limited, and therefore, quality of even their performance goes up. Of the refs coming in, well, you'd have to assume they are at least the same quality as the shite you have now.

Now, go back to being stupid, stupid.

Love you, TR. Welcome back to TTP.

 

[lego3]

I don't think that paying more to refs will fix the current problem and let me explain why.

I come from business world and when I started my company I was struggling with finding good talent to fill the roles and when I finally did find great talent they would leave soon thereafter they got experience. I tried different approaches throughout my time and the first approach I tried was increasing salary and let me tell you that it was a big fail. Here is why, first I didn't really notice a big increase in applicants as a matter of fact it was the same ratio as before but then when I did hire, they weren't worth the money that I was paying them. New hired employees weren't preforming to the standard that I needed them to be even though I was paying them more they were "COMFARTABLE". So I tried another approach pay them a minimum but incentivize them with bonuses, commission and performance bonus. Right away we saw an increase of applicants because they saw a bigger picture of a potential income if they put work into it. We also saw huge performance change because you actually have guys coming in to work determined and motivated because they knew that they get paid based of performance.

How can we apply this to our reffing industry is by doing the following:

1) Pay them the same or even less "base salary" and if they do a good job they will get paid high bonus at the end of the month. Coaches will evaluate them, will have a standard form to fill at the end of the game and send it to the league. That will motivate a ref to do a good job because they know they get evaluated and also their pay is dependent on evaluation.

2) pay them a bonus for reffing more games. Set a target for them and if they hit that target of games they will get rewarded. The goal is to eliminate shortage of refs.

3) give them a signing bonus it's a great reward to show refs that they are appreciated and wanted. Also, give them reward after 1 year milestone, 5 year milestone, 10 year milestone, and 25 year milestone and the goal is to keep them for a long time.

Reffing is a "business" and should be treated as such. They need to attract good talent and by incentivizing refs they might do so.

Simply paying more to refs will create more problems because you will get the shitty refs picking up more games because they want to make quick money.

This is a 10 min business plan that I just came up. Obviously it needs more thought to it but it's a start.....

Thoughts anyone?????

 

[Regs]

Pay them the same or even less "base salary" and if they do a good job they will get paid high bonus at the end of the month. Coaches will evaluate them, will have a standard form to fill at the end of the game and send it to the league. That will motivate a ref to do a good job because they know they get evaluated and also their pay is dependent on evaluation.

I'm thinking this may be a bit of an issue as if I want to maximize my earnings, giving out cards may actually hurt - you could call everything by the book, have a terrific game, even have a coin toss at the start and some fcuking knob is going to rake you over the coals in his official evaluation to the league.

Then, because refs stop handing out cards and earn more, the league goes bankrupt as fines dwindle to nothing.

 

[lego3]

I'm thinking this may be a bit of an issue as if I want to maximize my earnings, giving out cards may actually hurt - you could call everything by the book, have a terrific game, even have a coin toss at the start and some fcuking knob is going to rake you over the coals in his official evaluation to the league.

Then, because refs stop handing out cards and earn more, the league goes bankrupt as fines dwindle to nothing.

I can see your point so perhaps instead of evaluation they can have some sort of point system. Every point converts to money. This is just me thinking out loud.....

 

[Dude]

That's the weakness I see...something like this can't be incentive based. The only way I see bringing more kids- and former players- into refereeing is by making it more attractive, and usually that means more $$$ per game...but a better system that improves the conditions would go a long way.

We see refs in hockey all the time mentoring younger refs. The mentor will skate as linesman, and actually discuss matters with the "head official" during the game, and in between periods. Can that be implemented in soccer, at the youth level? What's one more body out there running around, staying out of the way?

 

[akslop]

Just get rid of refs all together . Know one likes them anyways. Keep the money and put it towards the beer fund. Teams can play on the honor system.

 

[Canucks4Ever]

Just get rid of refs all together . Know one likes them anyways. Keep the money and put it towards the beer fund. Teams can play on the honor system.

#UrbanRec

Oooohh...instead of a ball maybe we could use some sort of flying disc?

 

[dezza]

And then after the game we can all gather around in a friendship circle?

 

[Stringer]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is appreciated.

1) I think that we can agree that more assessment and training might help. Perhaps we can suggest that league pays for an extra assessment to be done by BC soccer and that a minimum standard is required to be at each level.

2) We might disagree with the issue of not being workers. I might tend to think that viewing them as "volunteers" and that they do it for the "love of the game" justifies their exploitation. For instance, the National Labor Relations Board recognizes them as workers. They can get unionized in North America. Their actions do great revenue and profit for any organization; thus, they are workers.
My sense is that when they deduct gas, clothing, travel time and preparation, and report preparation; it might be like a $10 an hour wage or even less.

In fact, I might tend to think that viewing them this way also makes them diminish their performance. If I am a volunteer, then you can not expect or put high demands on me.

3) Although cross country comparisons might be interesting, they can be misleading. The costs of gas, travelling, and foregone wages are different from region to region, and also the revenue that they generate is different. Remember that the VMSL has accumulated quite a bit of cash over the years. It is not like they are struggling.

I got a brilliant idea. Why not tell your club to stop paying players and use that money to donate towards referees?

 

[Soccer Coach]

These are all very good ideas. Please keep providing them. I will compile them and then provide them to the league and see if we can put them in form of motions to the AGM. I am convinced that we can change the system for the better.

At this moment, we have 6 games in Division 1 and 6 games in Premier. Premier could improve refereeing but many of them are adequate; Division 1 could be improve most of them. Guys, I can not believe that a Metropolitan city like Vancouver can not have SIX good referees for an amateur league.

I am hinting that there is a bottleneck in the supply. Someone or a group of people are making sure that new and good referees do not come to referee those games.

 

[Regs]

Someone or a group of people are making sure that new and good referees do not come to referee those games.

 

[Soccer Coach]

Essentially, we have group of very loyal people monopolizing the SIX weekly appointments for Division 1. It is as simple as that.
There is no competition or way for a new or young referee to get on those six weekly appointments as it is really not based on merit but on a relationship with that group of referees.

I have seen some younger and good referees doing Division 3 or Division 2 games, but they do not get the Division 1 appointments.
Thus, some sort of independent assessment and grading needs to be done on a periodic basis.

I really think that referees should be paid more, but their positions should be filled in a competitive basis. Perhaps every quarter of the league schedule people are moved up and down based on the independant assessments.

 

[Regs]

Zoom

 

[dezza]

I think the only way to solve this is for @Soccer Coach to post Campo's VMSL Referee Rankings