'It's a declaration of economic war'

Oilers27

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This softwood lumber shite has gone to fair how long does the fedral government going to just shite around and do nothing as people are losing there jobs and companies shutting down! It;s time prime minister brought his zipper up to the front shook his balls and said to them he has had enough of being pushed around like he always does! I say if the UsA wants some of are energy... tax the living shite out of it.... well im done venting

anyone else feel the same way


oilers
 

Dude

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Waiting for more

Just waiting to learn more about exactly what happened, but this really is a big deal. Much bigger than the civil cuts that took place a short while ago. The spin-off effect is enormous.

Apparently talks broke down last night or this morning, and the Canadian Government walked away from a19% tariff. The US has now re-imposed its 32% tariff, effective immediately. The Canadian Government does need to recognize that we have been dumping into the US for some time, and we bare some responsibility too. The fact is, more than anything right now, we simply need a solution- even if it is not the best solution. They keep talking about "winning" the dispute. Well, the only way they will "win" is if they somehow can convince the US to drop all the tariffs. That will NEVER happen. Mills need a solution so they can start back up with production, and carry on with planned expansion projects that are now on hold. If there were a solution in place, it would also force the industry to look at upgrading the plants to higher efficiencies, which would help everyone long term anyhow. Yes, some plants will shut down regardless, but at least everyone could move on.

Getting into a commodity war is not the solution- we don’t want to go there. The only real solution is to get our Prime Minister at the table

On a related topic, I was in Portland this week for the Wood Technology Show. Not nearly as busy as last year or the year before. Quite a bit more subdued.
 

Dude

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Don't everyone speak at once!

Isn’t funny how when the Government sticks it to the teachers, we get pages and pages of discussion on these forums, and when the government lays off 2500 civil servants we get dozens of different bleeding heart liberals and civil servant unionist crying that the sky is falling, and “Oh- lock your doors people!” Now that our province is looking at an indefinite direct layoff of 30,000 people in our single biggest industry- plus hundreds more to come in the spin-off effect- everyone is quiet!

What do you guys think now about the Governments’ mandate to make BC more attractive to new businesses? And before you start saying, “Well, the Provincial Government is mostly to blame for not getting a deal done”, think again! This was in the works long before Gordo and his yes-men came along. This is an issue that the Feds have been waffling on because the nation-wide impact is insignificant- even though the impact here at home is potentially devastating. Jean Cretien talks the big talk, but his people have been unsuccessful in getting the Yankees to see the light: these tariffs are bad for BOTH Canadian producers and US consumers. Softwood lumber includes green logs. The consumer price will be going up across the board, like it or not.

Speak up if you give a shite!:mad:
 

Oilers27

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FCUKEN USA

AS the tariffs came in all new houses in the USA went up $1500 approx. so like you said DUDE we all lost except for the few US. lumber lobbest. And in a way its said it has come to this because no matter how you look at it we lost even if we win at NAFTA. I really think its time we (the prime minister) take a look at the realationship wit the usa, and its time we start playing hard ball with them too! Jean Cretien i think is a fcuking waste of canada's time and i hope BC really thinks hard the next time USA needs some of BC Hydros power!!!!

OILERS:mad: :mad: :mad:
 

john

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Dude,

This is such a complicated issue that I doubt many of us here can do it justice!

I do agree with your comments regarding the uproar we as British Columbians had about civil workers and teachers not getting there so called proper say............and that this is definetely a federal issue. We can not afford to wait for the WTO to sort this out as the B.C. operated companies (Slocan, Lignum etc) won't be around to see the result. You notice that the American based companies like Weyhauser aren't making a big stink about all this........do you wonder why?

Anyways, a good topic especially for me as I am directly involved with my company and am very much so interested in public opinion here!

John
 

Dude

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Weyerhaeuser

This opens the door for Weyerhaeuser to buy more Canadian companies. Imagine having Canfor owned and operated by American management? It would be a travesty. Look at MacBlo / Weyerhaeuser down on Boundary: this was an efficient, profitable particleboard plant when Weyerhaeuser bought it. Why is it closed now? Because it is worth more to Weyerhaeuser to build condos on that land. They do not care about how it affects Canadians and our workers.

I guess I'm pissed off because this directly affects me too. I'll survive- I'll just focus on other industries to make up the losses- but too many good companies will not survive this dispute.

I'm just curious to hear what people like the Keeper say, who are the first to cry foul VERY LOUDLY when any civil servant job is affected or lost due to Government policy.
 

john

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The American producers are the only that feel they need this settlement........when in all honesty the European producers are just licking there chops right now as they still have relatively free trade with there products! They aren't studs or direct builing products but other millwork areas are going to get flooded with all this crap that we are going through.

Dude, what do you do that this involves you?

John
 

Screw You Captain

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a voice from the left

I agree, Dude, it's b.s. and it's a kick in the toys for a lot of people. Unfortunately, it sounds like elections are coming up down south (aren't they always) and it's time to buy a few votes by beating up on the Canadians. Doman the 1 billion in the hole man is asking the feds to pay the duty up front, which they'd probably get back after the trade ruling. Sounds alright to me. Otherwise, once all the little and not-so-little BC companies go under, the Weyhauser and friends will come snap up the good bits, and more of our cash will go down the tubes to the states.

SYCstandsinsolidaritywithmysistersandbrothersintheprivatesector
 

Captain Shamrock

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Yes, I agree with everything Dude, John, and Scud are saying. I don't want to analyze this situation anymore because it gets too frustrating. I am sorry, Dude, but since I didn't follow the negotiations of my own union, I am not at liberty do discuss this issue. You make valid points though....


CaptainwhoisgoingtokickScrewYoutomorrownightjustforthehellofit

Dude, I heard your wing is a little weak from recent surgery. If you are playing, you better keep your head up. The light is poor in some parts of Minoru. :)
 

Dude

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Priorities

OK Scud, I’m calling you to task.

SYCstandsinsolidaritywithmysistersandbrothersintheprivatesec
Yes, the majority of people who will loose their jobs in this mess are union workers: millwrights, pipe-fitters, sheet metal guys, electricians…but you make no mention of the NON UNION GUYS!

This is what I mean! You left wing unionist are so quick to stick up for “Union Brothers”, but you make no mention or acknowledgement of the non-union guys who’ll loose their jobs. Salespeople and managers will be out of work too. Not to mention most people working for “support companies”- suppliers and small companies established to exclusively support the industry. I’m a small businessperson, and my own employee. If I were exclusively tied to the industry (thank God I’m not), I’d not only be out of a job, but without any benefits or severance whatsoever. I’d also be looking for a new career at my own expense. At least the union guys will get a decent severance & job re-training. You never make mention of the people who take the risks union guys refuse to. Without the risk takers to set-up and establish a supply house or small service outlet, there are no employees!

This is the big problem with union attitudes- they only care about themselves, not the well being of the whole workforce.

See you tonight. You’re not starting!

Captain- the bad wing will keep me off the field for at least another month. Your ankles can thank me later.
 

Reccos

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The Problem and the Canadian Response

The problem is quite simple. The powerful lumber lobby in the US has bought and paid- I mean supported- enough members of Congress to prevent even the President of the United States from directing his own people to resolve this issue fairly. Americans are great free traders until their interests are harmed.

That is one of the great drawbacks of the US system of government. To get elected in that country requires a lot of money. From the day a member of Congress or the US Senate get elected, they immediately have to start raising money or they won't be back. I have spent some time in Washington, D.C. where there isn't a night that every major hotel isn't hosting some type of fundraiser for elected people. The town is full of lobbyists and they all got tons of money. In fact, for some issues like gun control, it doesn't matter what side of the issue the politician takes there is money for him/her.

A trade war isn't the answer but there are two issues I'd like the government(s) to examine. One, an export tax on energy and more importantly, an export tax to prevent our raw logs from heading south or abroad.

By the way, blaming the federal or provincial government for the failed talks is rather dumb but typically Canadian. In fact, part of the American strategy in having the softwood lumber talks play out as they have is the US government's knowledge that Canadians will blame their federal government for the screwing the US is giving us. I can hear them laughing as they see they are winning the case with the Canadian people and our knee-jerk reaction in laying the blame on the Prime Minister.

I too have worked in the forest industry in a sawmill and pulp mill and have never agreed with raw log exports nor the fact we have never really worked at developing value-added industries for our logs and lumber.

The forest industry in this province has known about the problem with the US for years now and has failed to try to take two steps that over the longer term will improve our economy and ensure sustainability of the industry and resource communities:

1. Develop new markets for BC lumber (not logs) in Asia to reduce our reliance on the US market.
2. Develop value-added products and industries such as manufactured wood frame houses for overseas markets.

My sense is that the leading forest industry companies in BC have been somewhat guilty in ignoring these potential opportunities and have simply been milking the cash cow year in and year out. Now that we are really screwed badly (again), the people who will really suffer are not the company giants but the people in the forest dependent resource communities.

Interestingly enough, Weldwood's parent company in the US will net more money from the softwood tariffs than anything that Weldwood could do for them.

All gov't can do now is fight them in the international trade bodies which takes time and you never completely win. But maybe, just frigging maybe, the companies with gov't assistance, will get off their collective butts and develop new markets for BC lumber and develop new value-added industries.

Damn I didn't mean for this to go this long!
 

Dude

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All great points. Yes- the industry certainly has been guilty of resting on its laurels for years. We knew this was coming years ago. The declining local Pulp& Paper industry should have been adequate warning on its own.

The Feds aren’t necessarily to blame, but they are guilty of not being forceful enough early on. You are correct: the President of the US has limited power against congress decisions. But there was, just recently, a tight presidential election in the US where it would have been easier and more feasible to grease the right palms. It appears the industry missed the boat on an ideal opportunity to settle the issue there. They were still thinking “home run” at that point, instead of ground rules double.

One thing for sure- this will trigger government initiatives for new industries. Maybe not such a bad thing.
 

Oilers27

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pakistan

Just a little more information this is just like what happened with pakistan they let the americans come in and use there bases to wage war on the taliban but in return they asked for lower traiffs on textiles which the USA said NO TO !!!! All they do is use other countries to better them self without paying back the favor to friends :mad:



oilers
 

john

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First of all you don't find a market the size of the States to replace this market..........Second under NAFTA you can not tie Energy and Water to any sort of tarrifs.........not saying that it is right but it is the law. That response is a knee jerk one just like the others.

B.C. is being punished because we have effecient mills, far more so than many of our US counterparts! The campaign must be faught with the general public, both in Canada and the States. Use companies like WalMart and Home Depot to get our message out to North Americians!

The biggest joke of this entire matter is how different companies have different duties to pay.......how they came to those conclusions is ludicrous! We just need to get a level playing field and take the guess work out of this equation, will there be a duty, or won't there be. Once a tax or duty is imposed then we need to live with it, raise our prices and sell our products. All the while fighting this in the proper WTO channels and we will come out the better in the end. The losers will be the American home buyers.

John


John
 

Reccos

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Knee Jerk

John:

My comments weren't intended to be knee jerk at all. However, I can't say the same for your entire response (the market comment and describing my views as "knee jerk").

I am not sure we are being punished for our "effecient" (sic) mills. How efficient can we be when we can't even spell it!

And it is not like industry didn't see this coming for a long time.

My comment that gov't(s) should look at the export tax issue of energy was just that- look at some creative ways to ensure we are getting the right money for these products. Not linkage. Your answer suggests that it can't be done in any way and you may be correct. The principle behind my comment was the potential subsidization of these commodities by public money and only that. You are no doubt right that nothing can be done.

Your comment on the market is just precisely the statement of the malaise that got us to this point in the lumber dispute. Just sit around, lumber industry and do fcuk all. What a strategy.

It sounds like you have been in the industry too long or got hit on the head by one two many 2 by 4's in your career to think outside the box.

You find new markets by getting off your fat assess and working to develop them. You support -including that of gov't if need be - the creation of new value-added industries that are not here now.

The best businesses in the world were not built by simply meeting the needs of existing markets and customers but by developing needs for products that customers didn't know they had.

What would be wrong with BC developing manufactured wood houses and buildings for Asian markets and if done right, replace our dependence on the US lumber market?

BC has a number of building firms that construct log houses here (two in 100 Mile House alone) and they export them successfully to Europe and the United States among other countries. How about the lumber industry thinking a bit more creatively.

Didn't I hear Ron MacDonald make some of these suggestions to various meetings over the past few years. Isn't he the lumber council head?

You want to hear from the public. Listen more carefully, you might actually get an idea of value.
 

john

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Reccos,

It would seem that you have taken my comments a bit personally, they weren't intended as an attack on your points or point of view! They were however the facts.

I don't know what you do now, nor do I need to, but I think you might want to check into some of the organizations that do exist that are doing exactly what you suggested, (prebuilt log homes for example).

An organization called BCWOOD exists and is a provincially sponsored program to help small and medium sized companies market and develope these secondary manufacturing ideas. But that still doesn't help the primaries (that is the Slocans, Canfor's etc......) These companies produce wood for the secondary manufactures and you can't hide the fact that the biggest market for these products exists in the STATES! Do you expect companies like these to suddenly go into secondary wood manufacturing industry too? Possibly one of those 2x4's that got me got you first? Should the government start giving tax breaks to companies in order to start up these endeavours? Wouldn't that thrill all the left wing nuts out there as there teachers and civil workers are being laid off! Oh yah they already are going crazy........

I don't have the answers nor do I pretend to. I am one of those secondary manufactures that have actually benefitted from this..........because Americans can't buy our lumber right now they need to buy a finished product from me. But I am faced with buying US lumber right now because certain mills are shut down or are on drastically reduced work loads.

But ultimately the problem that I have is that we are in no way getting FREE TRADE and we have an agreement to do so. The Americans are setting a precedent here that could lead to me not being able to sell my products duty free in the future because they unilaterally decide so! We can not be bullied into something that doesn't work for our country!

John
 

Reccos

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Good Comments

John:

I am not in the lumber/pulp business and have not been for years.

You may be right that an errant 2 by 4 may have got me also and I took your comments somewhat the wrong way.

If this is benefitting secondary manufacturers great (for now at least) this really is the point I am trying to make.

I am not the biggest proponent of gov't aid to business and industry but somehow we have to get beyond the crises of softwood lumber as it is playing out now and develop more value-added businesses in communities where they are losing their jobs. If tax breaks will do it to help establish the industry and get skilled workers, then it needs to be looked at. Tax breaks might bring the US challenge but something creative has to happen.

One means is more emphasis on opening new markets with gov't money/aid with new trading partners. A good role for the federal government. In this way, the US can't claim a subsidy as easily.

What is absolutely unconscionable in your post is that you may have to buy US wood as BC mills might not produce to meet your needs. That is what I find wrong with the major lumber companies or is it the system where a little guy who'd like to cut lumber can't get logs? Are the lumber giants simply too uncaring for their people that they'd rather shut down totally than operate at reduced capacity? Don't need to answer that.

We then need to ensure a system where little producers can cut logs and have access to wood so that value added/secondary manufacturers don't have to buy US wood.
 

john

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Trust me I don't want to buy US lumber..........it is crap second growth shite and we know it as soon as it comes into our shop! We buy this through local mills that broker out some lumber that there customers might also need........so I didn't know where it came from until I saw it!

But it is for that reason that US companies have bought into our market. To get at our old growth timber and use our updated facilities with cheap canadian labour to sell the product back into the states! Trust me guys, that is what they are doing to get around the exporting of logs out of the country.

To find new markets like in Asia is difficult too. They have an abundance of lumber (Radiata, and Ramon) to name a few that grows to full size tree in less than 30 years. The product itself is good and you see it everywhere in your furniture, cribs and such around town. Companies (mostly American and Europeans) have set up operations in these countries to import the wood back to the states.........factor in the slave wages they pay there and you know we can't compete with that!

As I said I don't have the answers........but I do know that they, the primaries, have made billions of dollars over the past few decades and the good ones have reinvested it back into the operations to make them what they are today....state of the art. We are better at harvesting our lumber and we have a better source of it and those two things combined piss the living crap out of our friends to the south. The producers down there have the money right now to push congress and whomever else neccessary to make this what it is today..........As I said we need FREE TRADE as agreed in NAFTA and we need to support those that are battling for it on our behalf. And it isn't just politicians, it is the industry leaders from Canada that know what will work and what won't! We need to educate and be persistent in our attempts to fight the Americans.

John
 

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