Canada Women @ Tokyo Olympics

[dezza]

Re the pronouns - boy do I feel bad for the commentators. You've got 21/22 she/hers and 1 they/them in a fast moving game. And you've got a bunch of Twitter trolls waiting to pounce when you make a mistake. Honestly, the pronoun thing seems like it should be simple, but it's just not. The vast, vast majority of us have lived our lives with just he and she. Not only that, but "they" was also taught to us as meaning multiple, not singular. So ya, I think people need to lighten up on the pronouns. It's going to take some time...

"it" is singular and neither male nor female...

 

[knvb]

FYI

Gold medal match KO time has changed to FRIDAY 5AM PACIFIC.

On another note, I did not know until yesterday that Canada has a transgendered, non-binary person in the starting 11. Obviously I am old and stuck in my ways, but I cannot wrap my head around the whole they/them thing.

is this the same as when you were running around and making everyone call you Regs Abdul-Rauf?

 

[Regs]

is this the same as when you were running around and making everyone call you Regs Abdul-Rauf?

No, not even close.

Abdul Shaheem

 

[knvb]

'They' mistake.

 

[Dude]

As far as I understand Quinn identifies as non-binary, as in neither male nor female. They are not transitioning to "become"/identify as male, so no hormone therapies etc. that might run afoul of WADA or the IOC.

Re Olympic standards on this - it is a tricky area (and an emerging area of law). No joke, they used to do physical inspections of athletes back when the Olympics first opened up women's competition to determine if an athlete was/was not female.

I don't see a bunch of men suddenly identifying as female for the purpose of winning gold medals. That is something that is pushed constantly by media etc. and I think it's a total straw man argument.

That said, there are areas where the lines blur and Quinn is just the latest example. Not sure if anyone remembers the South African runner Caster Semenya, but that left the IOC in all kind of a sticky situation. She was born biologically female (and identifies as female) but naturally had closer to male levels of testosterone in her body. Basically, she was close to being a hermaphrodite from a hormonal stand point. She won the 800 going away and other female athletes cried foul.

WADA and the IOC currently have maximum levels for the amount of testosterone allowed to be present in a female competitors body (hence why men can't just wake up in the morning and declare themselves "female" before heading out to win a gold medal...). This meant Semenya had to take testosterone reducing medications in order to compete and this, obviously, affected her abilities. There was a huge legal battle over this, it went all the way to the court for arbitration of sport, because this was naturally occuring testosterone in her body. She was born that way. The court ultimately ruled in her favour, but it understandably kind of took the fun out of sports for her.

All this to say that it is a tricky situation and one that it's going to continue to develop over the coming years. However, no, don't expect dozens of men to simply opt to compete in the women's categories because it is "easier to win"...that's just ridiculous. It is about letting people live their lives as they feel they are meant to. As was mentioned, the transgender population is an incredible minority, so it is unlikely to be an everyday issue. But it will continue to attract attention.

As for Quinn, they aren't gaining any kind of athletic advantage by being non-binary, so I don't see the issue. Good for them to be able to live their best life and play the game that they love at the highest level where they have earned their spot.

Re the pronouns - boy do I feel bad for the commentators. You've got 21/22 she/hers and 1 they/them in a fast moving game. And you've got a bunch of Twitter trolls waiting to pounce when you make a mistake. Honestly, the pronoun thing seems like it should be simple, but it's just not. The vast, vast majority of us have lived our lives with just he and she. Not only that, but "they" was also taught to us as meaning multiple, not singular. So ya, I think people need to lighten up on the pronouns. It's going to take some time...

I give you one Michelle Dumaresque.

 

[freddy]

I give you one Michelle Dumaresque.

Is that the downhill mountain bike racer who was killing it, but was in danger of getting blue balls from the hard seat?

 

[Dude]

The same.

 

[freddy]

They was a big strong rider

 

[bulljive]

I ran into this in my work place. Worked with a guy for 8 years, married couple kids. One of the boys really mid 30s. always a bit feminine but let’s be honest plenty of “modern” men are. He chose to start cross dressing a bit getting bolder and bolder. Then disappeared for a few months and officially transitioned. All took place over a 6-8 month period. I honestly could care less, no hatred but it was tough to be the same. New name, trying to speak in a different voice.

I tried to say fcuk it this poor “girl” is like a leper I’m going to go break the ice. Hey buddy long time no see(thought I was playing it cool). It’s not buddy it’s “she”. At that point I’m rattled, mind thinking 1000 thoughts, my buddy has tits, what’s with this voice and then wait a minute I can’t say “hey she” that doesn’t work. Needless to say I’m a work in progress. No issue calling anyone by their name of choice and doing my best to be respectful. Correct my pronouns constantly and I just turn off.

 

[akslop]

Sloppy first half. Hopefully coach reminded them the game against the US wasn't the gold medal game.

 

[Regs]

This is fcuking painful to watch. Horrible PKs all around.

 

[Regs]

Fitting a former TTPer's daughter wins it for Canada

 

[akslop]

Goooooooooooooooooooold!

 

[akslop]

Fitting a former TTPer's daughter wins it for Canada

Free drinks on commercial?

 

[Regs]

Free drinks on commercial?

Pork and Cheese baby!

 

[Dude]

Fcuk me I’m drained. That was a stressful PK! Just occurred to me that in my life no Canadian National team has reached the top of the mountain. Has any in the last 48 years? Even at youth?

That was awesome……

 

[The Franchise]

Sinclair what a career!

She now sits on Canada's Mount Rushmore of GOATS with Gretzky and Nash

 

[Dude]

Honestly as I’m watching I’m thinking, what a way for Sincy to go out! Then it happened! Amazing, can’t write this.

 

[The Franchise]

Honestly as I’m watching I’m thinking, what a way for Sincy to go out! Then it happened! Amazing, can’t write this.

Cant remember her name (keeper) and I should cause she seriously won Canada the gold with her performance all tourney is retiring on top

 

[Dude]

Do not get me started on that subject..

WRT Quinn, my understanding is that Quinn (I refuse to use made up, language hijacking pronouns and they is not singular, so anyone playing that game gets referred to by their actual name, nothing else) is a biological female who either identifies as non-binary or a male. In any event, I don't believe Quinn has had any of the testosterone boosting treatments; if I'm right then I have no issue at all with Quinn playing on the team that lines up with her biological realities.

Where I cry foul is the idea that someone who has developed into (and trained as) a male athlete can one day wake up and say "I'm a woman now", and pretend that limiting testosterone from that point forward is a magic fix. Of course it isn't - there's an academic from the UK putting a lie to that particular argument but i can't place my fingers on the article right now.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Skip to about 1:50:

This is where I fall in (to now bring this discussion back full swing, GO CANADA!!!!).

There are three links I'll put up here, and it's a good read should you chose to follow...

Why I mentioned Michelle Dumaresq: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

This is a great story on her discovery: https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/michelle-raises-hell/

Anne-Caroline Chausson is not just a pioneer of Downhill, but mountain bike, and and Olympic BMX Gold Medalist. Did it all. Asked what she'd do if MD ever beat her? She'd quit racing.

“Today, we all fight against doping and try to be natural athletes,” says 26-year-old French downhiller Anne-Caroline Chausson, who won her seventh world championship in 2003. “Don’t we open a door for genetically modified athletes—or worse? Why not clone Carl Lewis to race against Marion Jones?”​

​

I was in the crowd when this one happened...

Slight against transsexual rival could cost racer

Suspended Schroeter might miss worlds

www.theglobeandmail.com

On July 23, Dumaresq (born Michael) hurtled to her third national title on the downhill course at Whistler, B.C., beating Schroeter by a single second. As the top three finishers mounted the podium, Schroeter was handed a T-shirt with the handwritten message, "100 Per Cent Pure Woman -- Champ 2006." She wore the shirt during the ceremony, while catcalls from the crowd were directed at Dumaresq.​

​

Now living here, I have a lot more access to former World Cup riders and champions- often we'll end up in the same rides when friends meet friends. I can tell you that from a female perspective, the sentiments are universally in-step w/ Schroeter on the issue. MD had the advantage of growing up a male, and when you do that, you obviously are able to take advantage of the physiological benefits of testosterone. The benefits are obvious, even if you transition late in life. What 14-16 year old young men can ride and are riding now are not touched by even the best pro women. The speed, the strength to pull it off, you simply can't compare, but she MD) was allowed to benefit from growing up as a male. Even IF a medical professional can prove to me that after transition, all that benefit disappears, the one advantage that remains is psychological; knowing you CAN take that drop, or that jump, at a certain speed. Knowing you can handle a course at a higher speed, and in some cases, to ride a very technical course, you must be at higher speeds to ride it cleanly. If you grew up female and never even approached the same speeds, or risks, trying to get there is a near impossibility for most women...but MD had already passed that phycological threshold.

There is a huge gap in most sports between the best men and women for a reason. It's not popular to say this out loud, but it's true.

I am not here to disparage MDs transition from male to female and have no issue referring to her as her. That being said, I also strongly believe she had a physical and psychological advantage the other girls did not have.