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BC Soccer Voting Structure Shiteshow

Regs

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15 youth districts get 15 votes
11 adult districts get 11 votes

I'm hearing that was agreed between youth and adult but then some backdoor shenanigans (not that kind, easy) scuttled it and we subsequently get the video BCSA produced (should've had league uno cheesy intro music).

We need some union mediators at this point.

Cue @robj

Will Ferrell Love Everybody GIF
 

Canucks4Ever

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15 youth districts get 15 votes
11 adult districts get 11 votes

I'm hearing that was agreed between youth and adult but then some backdoor shenanigans (not that kind, easy) scuttled it and we subsequently get the video BCSA produced (should've had league uno cheesy intro music).

We need some union mediators at this point.

Cue @robj

The one member one vote idea (ie 15 youth districts and 11 adult leagues) has been discussed, but was never formally (or informally) on the table to my knowledge. This is the CONCACAF/FIFA based model that I mentioned earlier.

Perhaps Adult would agree to this. It keeps them above 33% of the votes which would allow them to have a role to play on any future bylaw amendments. Of course the math could change if Youth splits into more districts or if Adult add or subtract leagues. I think this might be the middle ground we end up at but BCSA, to my knowledge, has shown no interest in a model such as this.

For the record, I believe it was mentioned at VMSL AGM that @robj is, in fact, heading up the Adult side of the negotiations.
 

robj

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The golden rule in negotiations Is not to negotiate through social media or the news. It only does harm.

Gales advice from Joseph Goebbels in posting her propaganda video has hurt this process.

I ask that you sit down with adults and youth and let us “the members” who elected you and this board, decide on how the voting structure will be and not how you want it.

Being President is not a position of power it is a position of leadership. Think about that or simply resign if you can’t be a leader.
 

Ballbaby

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The golden rule in negotiations Is not to negotiate through social media or the news. It only does harm.

Gales advice from Joseph Goebbels in posting her propaganda video has hurt this process.

I ask that you sit down with adults and youth and let us “the members” who elected you and this board, decide on how the voting structure will be and not how you want it.

Being President is not a position of power it is a position of leadership. Think about that or simply resign if you can’t be a leader.
As usual, the best commentary on any soccer related matters (and anything for that matter) is right here on TTP.
 

mtkb

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Respectfully, the Goebbels reference is every bit as harmful. I'm reminded of the axiom my dairy farmer grandfather used to use from time to time... "if you roll around with pigs in the mud... you're going to get dirty"...
 

cassis

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Respectfully, the Goebbels reference is every bit as harmful. I'm reminded of the axiom my dairy farmer grandfather used to use from time to time... "if you roll around with pigs in the mud... you're going to get dirty"...
You forget the tag line: “…and the pig likes it!”
 

cassis

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For C4E.
A couple of points of order.
1. When voting, you say each side abstains on items of business unrelated to their group. How then is a majority vote reached (50+1) if half aren’t voting? And if there were a split within the adult voters, say, couldn’t motions be defeated even with the other side abstaining?
2. How did they get to 74/26 if the population is 85/15? (Presumably there were more adults when this was originally calculated, yes?)
3. Finally, while the adult vote would be irrelevant under either split for matter pertaining to all members (which should be enough to kill the idea), the informal abstention rule would still operate under any split, no? Or is this where quorums enter the picture?
 

Canucks4Ever

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For C4E.
A couple of points of order.
1. When voting, you say each side abstains on items of business unrelated to their group. How then is a majority vote reached (50+1) if half aren’t voting? And if there were a split within the adult voters, say, couldn’t motions be defeated even with the other side abstaining?
2. How did they get to 74/26 if the population is 85/15? (Presumably there were more adults when this was originally calculated, yes?)
3. Finally, while the adult vote would be irrelevant under either split for matter pertaining to all members (which should be enough to kill the idea), the informal abstention rule would still operate under any split, no? Or is this where quorums enter the picture?

Happy to do my best to clarify.

1. I have not physically been in the "room where it happens", so to speak, so I am going off how the process has been explained to me. As noted, this is a "handshake" agreement, not anything formalized. I did ask whether it was a formal "abstention" in the true form of the word, or if the non-impacted party just votes to carry the will of the majority on the other side and I was told: "abstaining is the way to go". Perhaps @mtkb might be able to provide a more concrete explanation of how it occurs in practice.

The point, though, being that the end result, however it is ultimately achieved, is that Adult does not interfere with Youth and Youth does not interfere with Adult.

2. It is not a straight calculation based on the number of registrants (ie 90,000/2500 and 15,000/2500), it is one vote per league or district for each 2500 players they have registered.

As a baseline, there are 15 Youth Districts and 11 Adult Leagues. All of which get 1 vote minimum. Each district or league then gets an additional vote for ever 2500 registered players (or part thereof) that they have. Ie an Adult League with 500 players would get 1 vote; an Adult League with 2450 players would get 1 vote; an Adult League with 2501 players would get 2 votes; an Adult League with 6000 players would get 3 votes, etc.

Based on current registration numbers, it would be a 74/26 split.

3. The informal abstention rule is really no longer a factor, as I understand it, because there are simply so few votes under the current structure.

Previously, BCSA had its members vote on things like Rule Changes or Budget Items, but they no longer do that. Those matters are now the sole jurisdiction of the BCSA Board of Directors.

Again, I think it is important that the CONTEXT of the situation and how we reached this point is considered.

There was no great power imbalance or slew of "negative" outcomes that led to some massive hew and cry for CSA to come "fix" BCSA.

CSA is simply being officious and decided that the "inequity" in BCSA (and other Provinces) needed to be "fixed". It is a classic case of a solution looking for a problem.

Under the only solution BCSA has proposed, Adult members would be ostensibly taken out of the equation entirely. The 1 vote per 2500 members was not mandated by CSA - only the need to "fix" the "inequity".

All signs appear to point to Adult being willing to come to the table to find a solution that all sides can live with, but, instead, BCSA has started saying that CSA is now going to ban all soccer in the Province unless their solution is adopted, to which Adult has, so far, shown to not be amenable.
 

dezza

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Did this issue even originate at Canada Soccer?

My understanding is that in 2020 a 4-year strategic plan was released titled "BC Soccer's 2024 Strategic Plan"

We only have access to a "brochure" version of that Plan, not the full document, but within it is a line item:
  • Analyze membership voting structure focusing on equity


The letter from Canada Soccer directing BC Soccer to make this change is dated September 2021.
 

mtkb

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1) Once you have quorum present, you don't need to worry about it with respect to individual votes. Quorum might be 1000 but if only 5 of those 1000 vote and they all vote yay then the motion will pass. In practice, I believe they give out cards with the number of votes (remember that proxies are a thing as well) at the registration portion of the meeting, and then voting delegates hold up those numbers when they want to vote yay or nay. Sometimes they have to count, sometimes there's a motion for a secret ballot, but generally it's pretty obvious when most of the room votes one way or another. Adults sit on their hands when it's a youth issue and visa versa.

2) There must be a reason the CSA wants this done - it can't just be that they woke up one day and decided they needed more "equity" in their lives.

3) This is not unlike the fact that each US state gets two senators, or the makeup of the distribution of Senate seats as between areas of the country in Canada. Some would argue that uneven is totally equitable because a) it prevents a tyranny of the majority and b) it was part of the basis for bringing membership together in the first place. As has been mentioned by someone else, the adults bailed the youths out financially back in the late 90's, and only agreed to join organizations on the basis that the voting split would be 50/50. It's perfectly acceptable for two groups to enter into such a mutually agreeable arrangement; the CSA really has no business sticking its snout into this...
 

Regs

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PV

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During my time on the BCSA Board, the the agreement that adults don't vote on youth issues and vice versa was respected.
What some youth reps don't like and what CSA may be afraid of is the influence which adults have at BCSA elections.
BCSA gives CSA well over $1M each year. Most of which goes to CSA salaries.
Hopefully BCSA is working on a backup plan that will allow youth and adults to play soccer if CSA applies sanctions.
TTP - if you are unhappy with BCSA then blame they adult leagues, they had 50% of the votes at election time and could have elected different people
 

Regs

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TTP - if you are unhappy with BCSA then blame they adult leagues, they had 50% of the votes at election time and could have elected different people
As they say on twatter, that's a bad take.
 

bulljive

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The thing is about electing anyone is it’s always a mild guessing game. You don’t know the level of cnut you are dealing with until they have time in whatever political seat with a little power.
Zero part of me thinks there wont be soccer next season. After Covid? Seriously it’s fear mongering. They told Kevin Bacon he couldn’t dance but he fcuking danced his heart out. Good luck. Canada soccer is going to stop kids playing in BC with the momentum we have with the national team ? come now.
PV don’t you have a tree to hug.
 

FC Red Star

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"...the CSA really has no business sticking its snout into this..."

You are talking about an organization who organizes a friendly game against Iran in Vancouver, over $50,000 people purchase tickets and then CSA cancels the game because some politicians started voicing their negative opinion about a friendly against Iran. Who cares about 50,000+ people!

BCSA bureaucrats do not want to upset CSA bureaucrats because a lot of BCSA bureaucrats would like one day to become CSA bureaucrats and once you are a CSA bureaucrat your chance to become a CONCACAF bureaucrat is within a reach.

President of CONCACAF makes $1,250,000 per year plus the provision of 100% non-guaranteed bonus (based on an article from 2018). He also gets an additional $300,000 for his role as one of eight vice presidents on FIFA’s governing council. The group meets three or four times each year. $75,000 to $100,000 per meeting! Well done!


I guess every bureaucrat at BCSA and CSA dreams about becoming another Victor Montagliani. That road has to go through CSA so that is why you won't see any push back by BCSA when CSA wants to make some changes. Instead, BCSA decides to bully their members and threaten them. Really!? Gentlemen, this game was played long time before you and will be played long time after you.
 

mtkb

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all of that is true, but the point about good governance remains. if the CSA wishes to go down the autocracy road, they'll find themselves with breakaway organizations across the country much faster than they realize.

they can't prevent people from kicking a ball, coaching a team, or officiating a match. all they can really do is prevent teams from attending the amateur nationals they've never really wanted to put on for the plebes anyway. boo frickin hoo. I can get insurance to take a team to a tournament abroad without having to get their sacred stamp of approval. as long as the adults have the jam to call BCSA and the CSA's bluff, they'll come out ahead...
 

mtkb

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During my time on the BCSA Board, the the agreement that adults don't vote on youth issues and vice versa was respected.
What some youth reps don't like and what CSA may be afraid of is the influence which adults have at BCSA elections.
BCSA gives CSA well over $1M each year. Most of which goes to CSA salaries.
Hopefully BCSA is working on a backup plan that will allow youth and adults to play soccer if CSA applies sanctions.
TTP - if you are unhappy with BCSA then blame they adult leagues, they had 50% of the votes at election time and could have elected different people

Isn't the issue that the CSA is trying to direct the vote? and isn't the voting done by the members, rather than the BCSA board members? If so, doesn't that mean the BCSA directors are really just caught in the crossfire?
 

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