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2012 Whitecaps Game Thread

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Jigsaw

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The whole player development program in BC needs to be reviewed.
Since the Whitecaps and BC Soccer have been in partnership in the development of players in BC, there has been no players coming through to the first team at the Whitecaps, or the National teams at CSA.If I am not mistaken, the partnership has been going on for about 8 years and it is evident that there is something drastically wrong, when there are no players from BC getting selected to the National Teams.
It used to be that at least 50% of all National Teams were BC Players.
Now, we are getting 1,or 2 players at most selected.
As someone who was heavily involved in developing players for both the National Team and the Whitecaps (86ers) I find it disappointing to see this happening.
It is time to stop assessing the players and start assessing the Staff and Coaches who are responsible for this disgraceful performance.
The NTC is supposed to develop players for the National Teams and quite frankly, has not done so, yet the guy who runs the program gets rewarded with a position as Head Coach of one of the Teams. How can that be?
He doesn't even pick players from his own Province, because they are not good enough. Who's fault is that?
The propaganda that is spilled out, telling us how good these programs are, is sickening.
There is no "end result" and they should be held accountable. We keep hearing about how great the program is, but the stats don't lie.
A huge clear-out is well in order here.
 

LION

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Really?

Is that your final statement or would you like to call a friend on this one?

What does this mean Regs? Do you think teams still play with a sweeper at the pro level?
Are you agreeing with Base and his assessment? Huh?
 

Regs

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What does this mean Regs? Do you think teams still play with a sweeper at the pro level?
Are you agreeing with Base and his assessment? Huh?
What it means is that things go in cycles. Do you think 3 at the back should ever be employed "at the pro level"?
 

bulljive

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What it means is that things go in cycles. Do you think 3 at the back should ever be employed "at the pro level"?

Of course things go in cycles, like bell bottoms, who thought those would come back around. I'm just saying the days of following someone around the pitch are a bit in the past, yes some guys get special attention like Messi and teams strategize for them but Pepe isn't following him around the pitch. Everything is by committee, as teams play zone and chasing someone around just drags someone way out of position. I'm sure a sweeper will come back around but it would most likely come in a new form and shape. I duobt Mrs Baes was reefeerring to a evolution of tacitcis.
 

swampdonkey

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Back on point! I won't be renewing my season tickets next year...the last 6 weeks have been terrible soccer to watch! Maybe a game pack and even that's a stretch.
 

Mr Base

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Guy's you do not have to agree with me. Just look at Caps last five games. They give five six clear chaces to the opponents. The main reason last four players are toslow to cut the passes off. To play zone marking you must have four fast backs. Caps have the two, other two are toslow. As far as man marking that is only in your thirty five not all over the place. Bull man you sound lie bitter Slav.
You can always go back and watch good soccer.
Coach has a tough job in next few games. Losses will ckick him out of playoffs. We will see a totaly new team next year.
Some guys just do't have what it takes to play in MLS. It is a tough phisical game with lots of pace.
In my opinion Portland with better coaching has a better team then we do.
 

johnnybluenose

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Rennie has been quoted as saying to make the playoffs this year would be a bonus. Everything he and the club have done is for next year and I will reserve judgement till then. Right now I cannot watch, but I'm not going to sit here and say Rennie should be sacked and we will see a whole slew of new guys in the roster. Rennie says we were ahead of schedule previously and we look about on schedule right now.
 

johnnybluenose

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I think it's a bit of humility and honesty. TBH and give him some credit he was saying this when they were knocking on the door of the top 3 in the conference, so it doesn't come off as a parachute cord type excuse right now.
 

Dude

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I think it's a bit of humility and honesty. TBH and give him some credit he was saying this when they were knocking on the door of the top 3 in the conference, so it doesn't come off as a parachute cord type excuse right now.


I buy this line of thinking, too.

I think you need to give this coach at least two seasons to get the squad he wants, playing the way he wants. Firing another coach now would be going back to the drawing board three times in two seasons, which is stupid- unless the coach has proven to be absolutely innept. That can't be the case, unless there is a very tallented sqaud both on the pitch and in reserve that can get results despite the coaching staff. That is not the case here.

The squad has what I think to be fairly good tallent in their top 11, and a few in the next 6 or 7- but not many. When the starting 11 is playing at their best, they match up fairly well with the rest, but when they are not, the better teams with deeper tallent will control the outcome...for the most part.

This season has been about climbing out of the basement. They've done that. Good early and mid season results have carried them this far...now they are going through a rough stretch that is as much about bad depth and a tired starting back-line as anything. Maybe they will pull out and finish the season off well, and get themselves a play-off birth. I hope so.

The only moves I didn't really like were selling Davide, and trading Hassili...though I can't see how they could avoid the Davide move. The Hassili trade...I can see the reasoning, but he is a skilled, strong player that needs better service around him to be effective. Not many players like him come around, especially available to play in MLS. I liked watching the big man play, and he was engaging. Not to mention, more skill in his left foot than Miller can ever hope to possess in both. Combined.

The reserve system- I will take Jigsaw at his word on that. You can't argue that the lack of results- graduating domestic players- speaks for itself.
 

dezza

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What we don't want to become:

- 7 coaches in 6 seasons
- 118 different players
- 65-89-65 record in all matches

That is the stat line for Toronto FC.


On the subject of homegrown players. I noticed that Jonathan Top who lead FC Dallas in the USSF DA U18 season came on as a sub against the Caps a few weeks ago and scored. Meanwhile Ben Fisk who had similar success with the Vancouver Residency team never got a chance with the big club, and has recently been shipped out to Germany on trial.
 

dezza

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What we don't want to become:

- 7 coaches in 6 seasons
- 118 different players
- 65-89-65 record in all matches

That is the stat line for Toronto FC.


On the subject of homegrown players. I noticed that Jonathan Top who lead FC Dallas in the USSF DA U18 season came on as a sub against the Caps a few weeks ago and scored. Meanwhile Ben Fisk who had similar success with the Vancouver Residency team never got a chance with the big club, and has recently been shipped out to Germany on trial.
 

johnnybluenose

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Teibert has come through the residency, albeit he's an Ontario Boy
Adam Straith came through the Residency as a local kid and has since been sold on into Germany and has capped with the Full MNT.
Michael D'Agostino was a residency kid, and is abroad now, capped for U-20's
Edwini-Bonsu was a residency kid, capped for CMNT and is abroad in Germany
Ethan Gage was sold on from Residency, capped at U-20 and is abroad
Kyle Porter and Alex Semenets were residency kids, both now with FC Edmonton, both capped at U-20
Simon Thomas is now at Huddersfield, yet to be capped
have heard good things about current residency kids Bryce Alderson, Ben Fisk, Alex Rowley, Caleb Clarke and Daniel Stanese and all are currently on the Canada U-20 lists

To me it sounds like some were good enough but chose to make a go of it in Europe and some weren't good enough to crack MLS (Porter, Semenets, etc)

Also Marcus Haber, not a residency kid, has recently been full capped from CMNT and is a local.

I see a lot of Average players with the National Team making up the fringe of the squad and there almost exlcusively eastern kids from ON or PQ. Ledgerwood, Straith, Dunfield, and Haber are the ONLY guys on the Canadian MNT roster or recently called up with roots east of Toronto.

All the MNT games are in TO.

I wonder how many kids TFC academy has sold on now to teams abroad?
 

Jigsaw

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They might be good enough to go and play in the lower leagues in Europe, but not good enough to play regularly for the Whitecaps.
There are many that have gone to Europe and earned a living playing in 2nd. & 3rd. divisions and good for them.
I am saying that there have not been any players developed that can play regularly in the fist team, or play for the National Teams.
The stats prove that. How many BC players are being selected for these teams?
The program has been running for a long time now and we are still waiting to see anyone in ther first team as a regular.
If I was paying the bill, I would be asking for some accountability.
The CSA should also be asking, what is happenning in BC?
We now have a "premier League" and "high performance centres", as well as the "Residency" and yet we still have less players representing Canada than at any time previously.
It is not Rocket Science, something is drastically wrong here, no matter what crap that is spilling out as propaganda.
There has to be an end product here and to be quite blunt, there is not.
BC rarely gets on the podium at Nationals for select teams any more. Why?
They will tell you that it is development. Come on. That's what you would say if you are losing.
The only way to judge the development programs is: how many players get selected for the National Team and how many get regular places in the Whitecaps first team.
 

johnnybluenose

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Jigsaw, I didn't say you were wrong, I just pointed out to you that the WCFC Residency has developed some players. I never said I thought it was sufficient or insufficient, just that they had...

I'd agree with you that the BC Content is not high enough nor good enough with respect to representation by Western Canadians with Senior and Youth National Mens Programs.

I wonder what the Neindorf separation from the Head of Residency was all about? Him leaving or him being asked to resign or being sacked...
 

johnnybluenose

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Not surprised... I AM however surprised that Rennie has been given this much apparent autonomy. Nobody else including Paul Barber seems to have been able to move as freely without meddling and interference from Bobbaduzzi...allegedly
 

Jigsaw

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It makes me wonder what they are teaching the kids these days.
Player development is not about winning, as they say, but there has to be a winning mentality that needs to be installed in the players.
When any players are fortunate enough to get to the "top level" they need to be taught the game and what it takes to become a "professional".
Too much emphasis is on the fitness of the players and I honestly believe that when they go to sessions with the NTC and Whitecaps program, they need to be taught the game and the tactics surrounding it.
Some players in the past have complained that all they do is run, especially at the NTC.
The serious player will run in their spare time if advised to by the Coach.
They need to analyze why the BC players are not being selected and what short falls they have and start to work on making them a complete enough player to be selected.
I have been coaching at the U18 level for the past 6 years and cannot believe some of the selections and omissions to the NTC Program.
The system is definitely not working to what is was in the past, when we had an average of over 50% of the National Teams players coming from BC.
I know it is way back, but the old Whitecaps in the early 1980's had a conveyor belt of players coming through their system.
There were many players from BC playing at the highest level in the NASL with some of the worlds best players. Their reserve team went undefeated for a period of more than 2 years and the players moved forward and actually played in the first team, and deservedly so.
Does the Whitecaps first team staff get to work with the younger player's?
Or is it 2 separate programs?
Do the youth teams play the same way as the first team? Or are they getting different types of coaching?
What is the philosophy?
Something needs to change here, as the way we are going now is backwards.
 
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